Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1849430 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4335 on: December 13, 2017, 12:32:03 AM »
Kermit, in your "defense," when I was standing at T-Bar on my first visit, I, too, thought the river ran east and west. I thought the sun was across the river and it was noon-ish, so of course I must have been looking south, I reasoned.

Also, it seemed like I had done nothing but drive west - along the river I thought - from Vancouver to get to T-Bar.

But when the Truth Squad kept squawking I DID look at a map, and sure enough, the Columbia River makes a right-hand turn just before T-Bar and is flowing northwards as it passes T-Bar.

Now I've learned that T-Bar is 106 miles from the Pacific, and that ocean tides reach south of Portland. Whew.

It's amazin' what you learn here in the Forum.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4336 on: December 13, 2017, 02:05:09 AM »
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Robert,
It’s no big deal with me one way or the other so I’m not that interested in it enough to go search for a map. Apparently neither are you ! Therefor I will continue to feel that the Columbia doesn’t flow due North as it flows by Tina Bar. Once it flows downstream from Tina Bar it turns northerly until it gets to Longview area.

Kermit,

The above post is one for the ages!  Get off your lazy ass and look at the "FBI map" on this site!  Do you really expect to be hand fed everything?  Are we suppose to change you diaper also?

You are free to feel that the Columbia River runs East at Tina Bar if you wish.  But anyone who is actually interested in which way it flows will do as I have stated previously and find that it flows at 2 degrees East of North at Tina Bar.  The river flow is already going North at Tina Bar and starts turning West (not northerly) several miles downstream from Tina Bar.

For your information, several years ago, Georger and I spent most of one year looking at ever map and photograph that we could find of the Tina Bar area.  That experience formed part of the basis for everything he and I have posted about Tina Bar since then.

Who do you think you are ? When did you learn to talk so tough ? Don’t tell me to get off my Lazy ass and what’s this macho BS ! You’re  the one who claims to know the precise direction the Columbia flows by Tina Bar. You’re the same person who had no idea how to find REI even though you had 100% perfect directions. I had to hand lead you through the map,! Furthermore why don’t you learn to read. Where do you see me saying the Columbia flows East past Tina Bar. Also the Columbia flows Northerly downstream from Tina Bar basically. Have you ever been to Kalama ? I guess you haven’t been there because it lies,at mile post 30 right off I 5. This means it’s 30 miles NORTH of the Interstate Bridge. How is this Columbia river Port not proof that I am 100% correct when I say the Columbia river turns northerly until it reaches the Longview area. Longview exit is 36 which means it further NORTH. GET OFF YOUR Lazy Ass and come up to my neck of the woods and I’ll give you a geography lesson. I’ll take you up to the placard find location and you can see how long it takes you to walk,a FEW miles to Tina Bar. ( your exact words or lingo ). I’d guess it would take you most of the day LOL
 

Offline brbducksfan

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4337 on: December 13, 2017, 02:29:36 AM »
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and one more complication, I think.  :)  The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  :) Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?



Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Erosion @ Tina Bar is another thing I can't get a grasp on...it's my understanding that placing dredging spoils at the site wasn't consistent throughout the 70's - is that correct?  If so, via erosion, if the $ got there in 1971, wouldn't it 'move' over time towards the water, or at least to the surface?  What depth in the sand would it have had to start at for it to still be there 8 years later?  And wouldn't the movement of shifting sand via erosion cause enough friction to break the rubber bands that were on the $?
 

dcmey

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4338 on: December 13, 2017, 07:27:37 AM »
Has any one suggested about Cooper losing some of the money and it going into one of the engines? Some of the pieces that were found quite small.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4339 on: December 13, 2017, 07:38:32 AM »
Quote
Erosion @ Tina Bar is another thing I can't get a grasp on...it's my understanding that placing dredging spoils at the site wasn't consistent throughout the 70's - is that correct?  If so, via erosion, if the $ got there in 1971, wouldn't it 'move' over time towards the water, or at least to the surface?  What depth in the sand would it have had to start at for it to still be there 8 years later?  And wouldn't the movement of shifting sand via erosion cause enough friction to break the rubber bands that were on the $?

many people believe that's what should of happened..it doesn't just have a erosion problem the county reports it as "severe" ..Palmer marked the dredge level almost 3 feet down in 1980. one would think after 6 years the material would be washed away, or closer to the surface, instead, it appears to have replenished itself?

I'm not sure a lot believe the money got there in 71 unless they believe a plant occurred shortly after the hijacking. many seem to believe the money was placed on the beach via dredge. either way, the money wouldn't rise up, it would get exposed over the years through erosion..end message

Now, the personal attacks need to stop guys. I'm even seeing "mockery" being used by those who complained about it..I have several options. I can put some comments on "approval status" or restrict you from commenting at all?

Shutter

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4340 on: December 13, 2017, 07:44:13 AM »
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Has any one suggested about Cooper losing some of the money and it going into one of the engines? Some of the pieces that were found quite small.

That would be impossible. where the engines are makes it impossible to have anything from the stairs interfere them.
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4341 on: December 13, 2017, 01:03:31 PM »
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Has any one suggested about Cooper losing some of the money and it going into one of the engines? Some of the pieces that were found quite small.

He exited aft of the exhausts of all 3 engines. No chance of the engines ingesting the loot.

377
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4342 on: December 13, 2017, 01:13:48 PM »
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Quote
Erosion @ Tina Bar is another thing I can't get a grasp on...it's my understanding that placing dredging spoils at the site wasn't consistent throughout the 70's - is that correct?  If so, via erosion, if the $ got there in 1971, wouldn't it 'move' over time towards the water, or at least to the surface?  What depth in the sand would it have had to start at for it to still be there 8 years later?  And wouldn't the movement of shifting sand via erosion cause enough friction to break the rubber bands that were on the $?

many people believe that's what should of happened..it doesn't just have a erosion problem the county reports it as "severe" ..Palmer marked the dredge level almost 3 feet down in 1980. one would think after 6 years the material would be washed away, or closer to the surface, instead, it appears to have replenished itself?

I'm not sure a lot believe the money got there in 71 unless they believe a plant occurred shortly after the hijacking. many seem to believe the money was placed on the beach via dredge. either way, the money wouldn't rise up, it would get exposed over the years through erosion..end message

Now, the personal attacks need to stop guys. I'm even seeing "mockery" being used by those who complained about it..I have several options. I can put some comments on "approval status" or restrict you from commenting at all?

Shutter

I also would demand hard proof the money was deposited in 71. And I base this partly on decomposition. Had we been able to perform the full battery of lab tests we might have the answer to that question.
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4343 on: December 13, 2017, 01:44:52 PM »
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and one more complication, I think.  :)  The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  :) Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?



Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Erosion @ Tina Bar is another thing I can't get a grasp on...it's my understanding that placing dredging spoils at the site wasn't consistent throughout the 70's - is that correct?  If so, via erosion, if the $ got there in 1971, wouldn't it 'move' over time towards the water, or at least to the surface?  What depth in the sand would it have had to start at for it to still be there 8 years later?  And wouldn't the movement of shifting sand via erosion cause enough friction to break the rubber bands that were on the $?

One more time:  Rubber bands are long chain polymeric molecules that enter a process of natural (chemical) decomposition as soon as they are manufactured. Just Google this - there is a lot on the web about it.

The time it takes for these long chain molecules to decompose depends on temperature, uv light exposure, co2 and O2 exposure, humidity, background radiation, etc. Exposure to UV light is high on the list on things that speed up the molecules deteriorating. Bands of the type the money was wrapped in begin to lose their elasticity after six months. Depending on conditions bands can then go through a gooey stage (called the melt transition phase), a drying out stage, a crystallizing phase, and a crumbling stage.

The Ingrams' description fits the profile when they say the bands 'fell apart and turned to dust (or crumbled) when touched'. That indicates the bands on the money had reached the final crystalline dried out stage and crumbled into dust when touched. The bands had long ago ceased to have any holding power. What was holding the money together were river sediments and decomposed money paper (decomposed by bacteria) - the bills were sort of cemented together.

There is no erosion model for Tina Bar, so far, other than what has been presented in photos ...       
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 03:57:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4344 on: December 13, 2017, 02:42:59 PM »
Another interesting Tidal Tidbit:

Police in British Columbia confirmed today that the 13th foot and shoe to wash up in that Canadian Province since 2007 was found this week on Vancouver Island.

Officials are speculating that unusual "King Tides" deposited this latest piece of strange human remains, and experts are speculating that tides and oceans current could have deposited it from locales as far away as OREGON and Washington.

As gruesome as this news item is on first glance with fears of serial killers dumping their victims at sea, the truth is stranger but more comforting. Half of the feet found have been identified and come from victims of accidents or suicides. Further, the feet are being discovered because the victims are all wearing sneakers or other floatable footwear. This makes the feet more buoyant than the rest of the body, causing it to separate during decomposition.

Reported in todays' NY Times: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:48:19 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4345 on: December 13, 2017, 04:35:54 PM »
So much for idyllic walks on the beach...

377 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4346 on: December 13, 2017, 05:51:59 PM »
someone asked if Tina bar was around in 1971...I believe the question was answered, but here is some photo's of T-bar dating back into the 50's..
 

dcmey

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4347 on: December 13, 2017, 06:44:58 PM »
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Has any one suggested about Cooper losing some of the money and it going into one of the engines? Some of the pieces that were found quite small.

That would be impossible. where the engines are makes it impossible to have anything from the stairs interfere them.
I looked at a picture of a 727 after I posted. The aft steps are in the back and the 2 engines are in front of it. I wondered because of how cut up some of the bills were when the FBI found them.
 

Offline JLa

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4348 on: December 13, 2017, 09:33:51 PM »
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and one more complication, I think.  :)  The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  :) Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?



Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

So essentially, Tena Bar is a hodgepodge of collected materials? It sounds like they come from all over. Basing off of that, I realize that the dredge theory seems to be a popular one however, would there be a chance that the money (and the bag) became dislodged somewhere else and found its eventually landing spot?

Now I am not suggesting that the whole "wash-down" theory but I am suggesting a different twist. Ill try and explain. So in Baltimore area in the 60's and early 70's, they had significant issues with companies dumping who knows what into the Chesapeake Bay. Construction companies, chemical companies, everything. I guess people were not as environmentally aware then as they are now...or the laws were a lot less strict.

I would also reasonably assume that in the 70's and early 80's there probably was a huge construction boom in Washington. So if some people do not like the dredge theory, what if I pose the idea that some construction company was building something and digging up earth. They never checked the stuff they dug up; they just dug it up, threw it into a truck, took it to the river, dumped it in, and called it a day. The money bag was in the area that was dug up (hell, poor DBC's bone could have been right there with it too), loaded into a truck, taken to the river, and benignly dumped. The guy running the shovel didn't notice, the guy in the truck did not notice. Money goes into the water, winds up at Tina Bar, more debris comes in, buries it and so on.

While it is rudimentary, it sort of provides a little solution to the people whom say "well if he didn't land it in the water and died, why was nothing ever found?" And if something like that happened...good luck with all the other who was he's and where did he lands...yikes!  >:(
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4349 on: December 14, 2017, 12:45:12 AM »
J-L.A., I often think along those lines - a "one-in-a-million-bizarro-event."

One of my contributions to this category is the idea that the money was planted - all of it, even the shards of course - as part of a ritual burying program to train a cadre of guys into thinking they were DB Cooper. It could have been part of an indoctrination process - a mind-washing procedure - that could have been part of a MKULTRA mind-control thing. As a result it gives us Manchurian Candidates, Duane Weber, Barb Dayton, Richard McCoy, et. al. Maybe Petey - all those guys with strange pasts and stranger ties to Norjak.

Another Wild Ride, or Flight of Imagination, would be to tie the Cattle Mutilations of 1991 at the Fazio ranch into the money find of 1980 at T-Bar. then we can add in Extra-Terrestrials, DB Cooper, and coast-to-coast radio! Actually, I like this scenario a bit because I don't think Aliens did it. Rather, I think the CM program is a gov't job designed to scare the bejeesus out of everybody using reverse-engineered UFOs, etc. So, maybe rogue elements of the  US G sprinkled all of the money because, well because they could - and maybe they just wanted to mess with everyone's mind who came snoopin'.

It's posts like this that makes 377 question my sanity. One of the first questions he asked me when I first joined the DZ was: How much Kool-Aid you been drinkin '?

That was back in my pre-tequila days. I am currently in my post-tequila days. Drinking egg-nog straight tonight. Yum.