Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
5 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.2%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
9 (20%)
100 Cooper lived
17 (37.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 431324 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5205 on: December 13, 2019, 07:03:22 PM »
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I recommend to Cooper people that they take the Tosaw book and drop it in the toilet. Im serious.  :bravo:

Well you say tosaw made stuff up and 377 said in his upcoming interview on The Cooper Vortex with Darren in regards to his report about Tina telling him cooper looked at the packing card that he doesn’t think Tosaw is the type to make stuff up. Add this to the list of cooper conflicts,it’s maddening! 😑

yes and it does drive some Coopertinos crazy.

Tosaw's actual interview with Tina is a case in point. Over the telephone, short, restrained by the Mother Superior ... Tina was barely free to talk and yet Tosaw claimed a full free-flowing interview with Tina which is...  a lie.

I prefer the term: "Literary license." It is plausible to assume that Richard Tosaw back-filled Tina's non-interview-over-the-phone with information that he obtained from his brother, Mike Tosaw, whom I believe was a field agent at the Seattle office at that time.

Dismissing Tosaw, or fully embracing Himmelsbach's commentary, is ill-advised in my view. Rather, I say take both with a grain of salt, and keep digging for more corroboration.

I find the value in Tosaw's book to be the list of the 10,000 serial numbers for the $20 bills.  That published list opens up some possibilities for analysis on the money.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5206 on: December 13, 2019, 07:52:45 PM »
While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5207 on: December 13, 2019, 11:47:53 PM »
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I recommend to Cooper people that they take the Tosaw book and drop it in the toilet. Im serious.  :bravo:

Well you say tosaw made stuff up and 377 said in his upcoming interview on The Cooper Vortex with Darren in regards to his report about Tina telling him cooper looked at the packing card that he doesn’t think Tosaw is the type to make stuff up. Add this to the list of cooper conflicts,it’s maddening! 😑

yes and it does drive some Coopertinos crazy.

Tosaw's actual interview with Tina is a case in point. Over the telephone, short, restrained by the Mother Superior ... Tina was barely free to talk and yet Tosaw claimed a full free-flowing interview with Tina which is...  a lie.

I prefer the term: "Literary license." It is plausible to assume that Richard Tosaw back-filled Tina's non-interview-over-the-phone with information that he obtained from his brother, Mike Tosaw, whom I believe was a field agent at the Seattle office at that time.

Dismissing Tosaw, or fully embracing Himmelsbach's commentary, is ill-advised in my view. Rather, I say take both with a grain of salt, and keep digging for more corroboration.

"Literary license." is a polite way of putting it, imho. My perspective includes personal experience with the Tosaw 'tidal wave' here in Iowa. My family played football with Mike Tosaw. Richard left the FBI by common agreement, while his brother continued. Who knows what Richard got from his brother. So far as I know Richard never gave any attributions to his brother who was an active FBI agent in good standing, ....... when Richard's Kinnick program for the Univ of Iowa failed he took up chasing DB Cooper. Richard liked projects.

Now Flyjack has expanded his discussion on this subject posting:

"When Tosaw is being accused of lying,, consider the credibility of the source.
A source which has smeared, ridiculed, distorted and lied at some time about virtually everyone related to the Cooper case...
I posted Tosaw's claims, not mine.
Most of those claims are corroborated by other sources, however no book or person is error free."

Flyjack has called more people liars than Carter has pills - so I am in good company.

I dont like having to talk about any of this! I didn't start this debate!  ;)  The debate started before I was even born!

I will post more about Tosaw as time and opportunity presents itself. But, I am very concerned about using Tosaw's book as some kind of factual Bible for the Cooper case. Flyjac has it right in Tosaw's case when he says: " however no book or person is error free." 

Tosaw got into a huge quarrel with experienced salvage people and divers when he conducted his searches in the Columbia post 1980. I will share some of that factual history later, because it bears on people actually searching for Cooper artifacts near Tina Bar post 1980. And nobody found nothing!   
 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 12:55:41 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5208 on: December 14, 2019, 12:27:42 AM »
About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fishermen here who can explain it? 

This is just one example of a long list of questionable news releases that Tosaw put out over the years ... leading to the claim by many people that Tosaw was a Publicity Hound.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 03:26:36 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5209 on: December 14, 2019, 12:01:24 PM »
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About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fishermen here who can explain it? 

This is just one example of a long list of questionable news releases that Tosaw put out over the years ... leading to the claim by many people that Tosaw was a Publicity Hound.

Mount St. Helens blew its stack about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar.  The eruption put so much debris into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  It took several months to clear the channel so that shipping could be resumed.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5210 on: December 14, 2019, 01:28:06 PM »
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About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fishermen here who can explain it? 

This is just one example of a long list of questionable news releases that Tosaw put out over the years ... leading to the claim by many people that Tosaw was a Publicity Hound.

Mount St. Helens blew its stack about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar.  The eruption put so much debris into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  It took several months to clear the channel so that shipping could be resumed.

I lived in Happy Valley which was a small suburb of Portland at the time of the eruption of Mt. St Helens. I could immediately see the massive cloud and because we had friends who were from Toutle,Washington, we headed over there. The main blast was north and the Toutle River was the most devastated area. The Toutle River crosses I 5 at Approximately mile post 52 and caused the Freeway to be closed to fear from the log Jam high against the bridge. I had to walk to observe the disaster as freeway traffic was stopped. There still is a huge wall of volcanic ash that is clearly visible on both sides of the Toutle River which was dredged to clear the blockage caused where the Toutle River flows into Cowlitz River. The Cowlitz then carried this ash downstream where it flowed into the Columbia and of course deposited tons of ash which blocked the main busy shipping channel of the mighty Columbia river.
What’s noteworthy here is that this blockage was many miles downstream of Tina Bar. We got some ash in Portland area but by far the worst ash fall was Northeast of St. Helens like Yakima and Spokane. My present wife lived in Kalispell, Montana and they got more ash than I did.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5211 on: December 14, 2019, 03:12:10 PM »
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About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fishermen here who can explain it? 

This is just one example of a long list of questionable news releases that Tosaw put out over the years ... leading to the claim by many people that Tosaw was a Publicity Hound.

Mount St. Helens blew its stack about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar.  The eruption put so much debris into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  It took several months to clear the channel so that shipping could be resumed.

I lived in Happy Valley which was a small suburb of Portland at the time of the eruption of Mt. St Helens. I could immediately see the massive cloud and because we had friends who were from Toutle,Washington, we headed over there. The main blast was north and the Toutle River was the most devastated area. The Toutle River crosses I 5 at Approximately mile post 52 and caused the Freeway to be closed to fear from the log Jam high against the bridge. I had to walk to observe the disaster as freeway traffic was stopped. There still is a huge wall of volcanic ash that is clearly visible on both sides of the Toutle River which was dredged to clear the blockage caused where the Toutle River flows into Cowlitz River. The Cowlitz then carried this ash downstream where it flowed into the Columbia and of course deposited tons of ash which blocked the main busy shipping channel of the mighty Columbia river.
What’s noteworthy here is that this blockage was many miles downstream of Tina Bar. We got some ash in Portland area but by far the worst ash fall was Northeast of St. Helens like Yakima and Spokane. My present wife lived in Kalispell, Montana and they got more ash than I did.

I have relatives living in the Wenatchee area and they told me they had about 3 or 4 inches of ash on their house roof and ranch.  Much of that ash eventually made it into the Columbia River and headed downstream.

The Bonneville Dam visitors center has a feature on the damages to the dam's generators and the blockage of the shipping channel due to the ash in the river.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5212 on: December 14, 2019, 03:13:48 PM »
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About Tosaw:             Farflung posted this 1988 article about Tosaw years ago on DZ; it caught my attention at the time. After eight years of finding nothing in his searches Tosaw was announcing a major shift in his methods, based he said on "new information" about fishermen dragging/cleaning the river floor twice a years ... for the last 30+ years!!

The problem is I have never been able to find a fishermen or salvage person who validates Tosaw's claim that fisherman drag the river bottom (and clean it) twice a year.

Why would Tosaw make such a claim if there was no truth to it?  Maybe there is a fishermen here who can explain it? 

This is just one example of a long list of questionable news releases that Tosaw put out over the years ... leading to the claim by many people that Tosaw was a Publicity Hound.

Mount St. Helens blew its stack about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar.  The eruption put so much debris into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  It took several months to clear the channel so that shipping could be resumed.

I lived in Happy Valley which was a small suburb of Portland at the time of the eruption of Mt. St Helens. I could immediately see the massive cloud and because we had friends who were from Toutle,Washington, we headed over there. The main blast was north and the Toutle River was the most devastated area. The Toutle River crosses I 5 at Approximately mile post 52 and caused the Freeway to be closed to fear from the log Jam high against the bridge. I had to walk to observe the disaster as freeway traffic was stopped. There still is a huge wall of volcanic ash that is clearly visible on both sides of the Toutle River which was dredged to clear the blockage caused where the Toutle River flows into Cowlitz River. The Cowlitz then carried this ash downstream where it flowed into the Columbia and of course deposited tons of ash which blocked the main busy shipping channel of the mighty Columbia river.
What’s noteworthy here is that this blockage was many miles downstream of Tina Bar. We got some ash in Portland area but by far the worst ash fall was Northeast of St. Helens like Yakima and Spokane. My present wife lived in Kalispell, Montana and they got more ash than I did.

I have relatives living in the Wenatchee area and they told me they had about 3 or 4 inches of ash on their house roof and ranch.  Much of that ash eventually made it into the Columbia River and headed downstream.

The Bonneville Dam visitors center has a feature on the damages to the dam's generators and the blockage of the shipping channel due to the ash in the river.

What has any of this got to do with the DB Cooper hijacking case?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5213 on: December 14, 2019, 03:24:44 PM »
Flyjack's latest:  Tina's brother in law put Cooper money on Tina Bar. Tina a co-conspirator in the DB Cooper Hijacking case! And Fyjack's suspect was DB Cooper. It apparently started when Tina was in high school and DB Cooper was a janitor in Tina's high school. Tina and the janitor were: lovers. Lee E Dormuth an FBI agent maried to Tina's sister. Dormuth buried Tina's share of the money at Tina Bar to get Tina out of trouble. Cooper and Tina's baby was given up for adoption. Maybe that's why Tina wound up in a convent? The baby is a fisherman in Khat Hook Northwestern Territories today!

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   "Let's see..  Tina was in Gresham 1979... She had previously moved in with her sister and brother in law Lee Dormuth, an FBI agent. Lee E Dormuth's amateur radio address was at:

xxxx xxxxxxx Rd, Yardley Pa.. from 1972 - 1978. 1978-1980  it changed to xxxx xxxxxxx Dr, San Diego CA
 
Lee and Tina's sister placed Tina in Gresham 1978/79 when they moved from PA to San Diego.

Did Lee Dormuth discard the Cooper money into the Columbia 78/79 to protect Tina??
 
Palmer report.. money definitely deposited after 1978.
"Even with this, he still felt the money was not at the site for more than a year. At the height found, the money was definitely deposited more than four years after the dredging of the Columbia River in 1974."
 
 :bravo:   You can;t make this stuff up!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 04:24:57 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5214 on: December 14, 2019, 06:24:52 PM »
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While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.

Call any time. However, I will be in NY for the holidays.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5215 on: December 14, 2019, 06:34:31 PM »
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While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.

Read both.

Marty's book is more of an analytical overview, with exceptional - and original - information on the 90%+ success rate of WWII bomber crews parachuting over Europe.

Himms' book is uneven, but it does contain nuggets of first-hand information from a guy on the Hunt.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5216 on: December 14, 2019, 11:10:33 PM »
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While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.

Read both.

Marty's book is more of an analytical overview, with exceptional - and original - information on the 90%+ success rate of WWII bomber crews parachuting over Europe.

Himms' book is uneven, but it does contain nuggets of first-hand information from a guy on the Hunt.

His exchanges with Musika Farnsworth impressed me - too bad Farnsworth didnt write a whole book, she still could! Its my impression Farnsworth found H forthcoming. For one thing she learned just how 'informed' H was about other people's views of the case including Tosaw's claims. H does not come across as an empty vessel peddling an FBI line but someone actually concerned with evidence and engaged in determining facts vs claims. Other agents confirmed this view about H. Its kind of refreshing, compared to some of the cynicism which lurks in the Vortex.   
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 11:17:32 PM by georger »
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5217 on: December 15, 2019, 03:45:23 PM »
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While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.

Read both.

Marty's book is more of an analytical overview, with exceptional - and original - information on the 90%+ success rate of WWII bomber crews parachuting over Europe.

Himms' book is uneven, but it does contain nuggets of first-hand information from a guy on the Hunt.

A newbie could pick up either Bruce's book or Marty's and walk away knowing a lot about the case.  Marty's book is usually mentioned in relation to the WW II bail outs, but it also contains a summary of the case, some great short synopses of the major suspects (pre Rackstraw and Recca I think), some 302's, and a section on Max Gunther's LeClair.  Himmelsbach's book is good too, but in a different class than the newer books.  The two books I keep handy are Bruce's and Marty's.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5218 on: December 15, 2019, 03:56:37 PM »
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While the subject of books is being talked about.... I am open to suggestions for my next Cooper book. I was originally thinking it would be Himm's book, but lately I have leaning towards Mr. Andrade's book. Any suggestions?      By the way, I have really enjoyed your book Bruce! I have read it a couple of times. Would love to have discussion about it at some time. It answered some of my questions and also brought up more.

Read both.

Marty's book is more of an analytical overview, with exceptional - and original - information on the 90%+ success rate of WWII bomber crews parachuting over Europe.

Himms' book is uneven, but it does contain nuggets of first-hand information from a guy on the Hunt.

A newbie could pick up either Bruce's book or Marty's and walk away knowing a lot about the case.  Marty's book is usually mentioned in relation to the WW II bail outs, but it also contains a summary of the case, some great short synopses of the major suspects (pre Rackstraw and Recca I think), some 302's, and a section on Max Gunther's LeClair.  Himmelsbach's book is good too, but in a different class than the newer books.  The two books I keep handy are Bruce's and Marty's.

Good. I agree. Sounds like a good plan . . . good luck.
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5219 on: December 16, 2019, 04:19:05 AM »
I want to thank everyone for your advice concerning books. I will take it to heart. I plan to start with Martin Andrade's first, followed shortly thereafter by Himm's. Thanks again for the input!   Thank you Bruce for the invitation to talk. I will take you up on it after the holidays. Enjoy your trip east!
 
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