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61
DB Cooper / Re: CooperCon 2021
« Last post by fcastle866 on October 14, 2021, 09:21:07 AM »
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The feds in the mid 1970s and mid-1980s clearly believed DBC survived since they actively considered schemes to get him to confess, offer him immunity deals, etc.

Bruce: Very good point. I think this is overlooked.  The FBI clearly wanted the public to believe he died.  Everything they said made it look like that, and even to this day Larry Carr is saying he died.  But why have a worldwide manhunt for so many years?  That seems like a good amount of government waste that at some point would have raised a red flag.  If you're convinced he died, why not use all the government resources to comb the area of the flight path?  Go after missing persons? Go after unclaimed bodies? Do an analysis on the money and truly try to find out if it got spent?  If the FBI had made an effort to collect only the San Francisco series bills, they could have used probability to determine if the money was likely spent.  My feeling is they highly suspected that he lived.  It looks bad for the FBI that this is unsolved, and it might look worse if a regular citizen solved it and they didn't.
62
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by fcastle866 on October 14, 2021, 09:14:18 AM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?

It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.

Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

That last sentence above would be a waste of time.

Were there any Army airborne units at Fort Lewis in 1971? I have not been able to find any reference.  Here is why I ask:

Cooper asked for two fronts and two backs, as far as we know.  His options for describing the chutes would be:

1.  Two fronts and two backs.
2. Two mains and two reserves
3.  A skydiving rig
4. A bailout rig
5. A combination of these
6. Other terms??

Why say two fronts and two backs and not two mains and two reserves?  This tells me he was not a skydiver, or he was trying to hide that he was.  He does not sound like airborne, because he likely would have said two mains/two reserves.  "If my main don't open wide, I've got a reserve by my side."  But, he mentions McChord Air Force Base and not Fort Lewis as where the chutes are coming from. Does this indicate an Air Force background or an Army background?  Why not say the chutes are coming from Lewis or from a skydive center?

I'm on the fence about him using the reserve for the money.  He may have done it, but it was not his original plan.  My suspicion is that he planned to jump with a back and a front, and put the money in a good spot on his body.  The money showing up like it did probably took him off plan.  But to me it makes sense he would want to jump with two chutes.  One because it is normal, two because he did not trust the FBI. 

The language on this had me interested a few years ago. Bruce has a good section in his book on this. 
63
DB Cooper / Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Last post by 377 on October 14, 2021, 07:56:52 AM »
Dudeman wrote: “ Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P

Sorry I missed the question. I jumped at Taft in the mid 1970s. I earned my SCR at Elsinore. Those are the only two Southern California DZs I have jumped at. NorCal DZs include Livermore, Antioch, Tracy, Santa Rosa, Pope Valley, Monterey and Byron.

Jumping this coming Saturday at Byron. I turn 72 soon. So grateful to still be able to skydive.

377
64
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by JAG on October 14, 2021, 07:09:34 AM »
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Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?


Heh. Things were different back in the day.
When men were in all the business jobs, and they didn't know how to use a typewriter...they'd pass something off to the secretary or secretarial pool to get typed up.

To keep track of things, the standard was to have  the upper case initials of the person that supposedly "wrote" the letter or whatever first, then colone, then lower case initials of the person who actually typed it.

so "bh" was the secretary of Tosaw's. I doubt if Tosaw typed it, he'd include that line to identify his company. It woudl be a strange misuse of the format, if so.

I wonder if someone who redacted, didn't realize the RTT conveys info in that letter :)

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Quote
Write the letter according to proper business formatting. Include the closing and signature block.

Add two blank lines underneath the signature block. Begin the typist’s initials line flush left.

Type the initials of the letter writer in capital letters, followed by a slash or colon. Add the typist’s initials in lowercase letters. For example, if the letter writer's name is Andrew Benson, and the typist's name is Carrie Dale, the typist line should appear as follows: AB/cd, or AB:cd.

Thanks, I learned something new !  ;D
65
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on October 14, 2021, 12:57:47 AM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?

It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.

Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

That last sentence above would be a waste of time.
66
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by snowmman on October 14, 2021, 12:09:48 AM »
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Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?


Heh. Things were different back in the day.
When men were in all the business jobs, and they didn't know how to use a typewriter...they'd pass something off to the secretary or secretarial pool to get typed up.

To keep track of things, the standard was to have  the upper case initials of the person that supposedly "wrote" the letter or whatever first, then colone, then lower case initials of the person who actually typed it.

so "bh" was the secretary of Tosaw's. I doubt if Tosaw typed it, he'd include that line to identify his company. It woudl be a strange misuse of the format, if so.

I wonder if someone who redacted, didn't realize the RTT conveys info in that letter :)

per You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Write the letter according to proper business formatting. Include the closing and signature block.

Add two blank lines underneath the signature block. Begin the typist’s initials line flush left.

Type the initials of the letter writer in capital letters, followed by a slash or colon. Add the typist’s initials in lowercase letters. For example, if the letter writer's name is Andrew Benson, and the typist's name is Carrie Dale, the typist line should appear as follows: AB/cd, or AB:cd.

 
67
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by JAG on October 13, 2021, 11:06:36 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

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The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?

Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?  I looked up Tosaw's obituary:

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and found that it states he founded "The Bureau of Missing Heirs, Inc., specializing in escheat law"  so does BH = "The Bureau of Missing Heirs".  In other words rtt:bh = Richard T. Tosaw of or from The Bureau of Missing Heirs ? ? ?

From Wikipedia:
"Escheat /ɪsˈtʃiːt/[1][2] is a common law doctrine that transfers the real property of a person who has died without heirs to the Crown or state. It serves to ensure that property is not left in "limbo" without recognized ownership."

Certainly sounds like it could apply to the TB Money....wrt unrecognized ownership ?
68
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by snowmman on October 13, 2021, 10:42:43 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?
69
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by JAG on October 13, 2021, 10:35:20 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:
70
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by snowmman on October 13, 2021, 07:17:00 PM »
with respect to my question of whether Robert T. Tosaw tried to act as attorney for the ingrams..

fbi file 46 page 364, 365, 366, 371 (attached)

Note the typist note is "RTT:bh" on page 364 and isn't redacted. Is this "Robert T. Tosaw" ? If so, was he also serving as attorney in the final 1986 settlement??

The letter says:

"I am the attorney for <long redaction>. The <redacted> was part of the <redacted> by the Northwest Airlines in the D.B. Cooper hijacking case.

<redacted> I am writing to Northwest Airlines and their insurance carrier, Royal Global Insurance  [ed. interesting he doesn't use the Global Indemnity name], asking if they will consent <redacted>. If they consent, would your bureau <redacted> it would not be needed to prove anything, would it? If so we could wait until you no longer needed it.

I appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Please advise"


The FBI in the next two pages forwarded the letter and got their own legal advice, and said they would keep it. I'm assuming the redacted is talking about the found money.

The first letter was dated March 30, 1982 and sent to the Director of the FBI in Washington DC.


The Attorneys the FBI contacted advised:

"...advised that inasmuch as this matter is not completely ajudicated that the money recovered is evidence and is also stolen property and in the event the case is adjudicated, the money would be returned to the rightful owner, either the bonding company or Northwest Orient Airlines. He said <redacted> would have to contact the rightful owner of the money following the adjudication of the case in an effort to return the money"

that response was sent to the Director of the FBI.

A letter was apparently sent to the original letter write in Ceres, California, repeating what the FBI director was told.
this was done May 19, 1982. that's page 371

all pages attached


At the time Tosaw wrote his Cooper book in 1984, he was in Ceres, California. So that matches up
D. B. Cooper: Dead Or Alive?
by Richard T Tosaw
ISBN 13: 9780960901616
ISBN 10: 0960901612
Paperback; Ceres, Ca: Tosaw Publishing Co., 1984
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10