Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1846590 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #885 on: April 04, 2015, 09:38:44 PM »
That'd be a fun experiment, strapping a bag of money to a crash test dummy and doing some terminal velocity tests...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #886 on: April 04, 2015, 09:44:43 PM »
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That'd be a fun experiment, strapping a bag of money to a crash test dummy and doing some terminal velocity tests...


You read my mind :P I was thinking just make 100 bundles of the same size bills, pop it in a bag (tied) and drop it off of one of the buildings down here. I don't know what height you would need for terminal V.?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #887 on: April 04, 2015, 10:26:45 PM »
A 20 pound object falls 100 feet, how many foot pounds are generated at impact?

solving h = 16t²,
100/16 = t²
t = 10/4 = 2.5 s
so the object takes 2.5 seconds to fall, accelerating at 32 ft/sec²
and so its terminal velocity is 32(2.5) = 80 ft/sec
and its kinetic energy at that point is
E = ½mv²
E = ½•20•80²
E = 64,000 lbs ft²/sec²
and then divide by the 32 ft/sec² gravitational constant to get
E = 2000 ft-lbs
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:28:04 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #888 on: April 04, 2015, 10:37:54 PM »
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I've mentioned this before, but if he was a no pull, and the money was with him you would think the money would have shifted dramatically once he hit the ground, especially if he landed on the bag?

If he landed on the bag, the money would definitely have been compressed, but it would have stayed that way only if it remained under his body.  However, as mentioned above, there is evidence that at least one bundle of money was exposed to water flow when it was unrestrained enough for the bills to "rotate" and everything but the restrained stubs to break off and disappear.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #889 on: April 04, 2015, 10:55:20 PM »
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A 20 pound object falls 100 feet, how many foot pounds are generated at impact?

solving h = 16t²,
100/16 = t²
t = 10/4 = 2.5 s
so the object takes 2.5 seconds to fall, accelerating at 32 ft/sec²
and so its terminal velocity is 32(2.5) = 80 ft/sec
and its kinetic energy at that point is
E = ½mv²
E = ½•20•80²
E = 64,000 lbs ft²/sec²
and then divide by the 32 ft/sec² gravitational constant to get
E = 2000 ft-lbs

Using Shutter's equation above but assuming that the speed at impact is 180+ MPH (15,840 ft/sec), the final value for E is E=78,408,000 ft-lb.  A noticeable difference.  As a no-pull, Cooper's terminal speed at impact would also be the same as the money bag (assuming it is tied to Cooper) and Cooper would make a hole.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #890 on: April 05, 2015, 12:38:10 AM »
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A 20 pound object falls 100 feet, how many foot pounds are generated at impact?

solving h = 16t²,
100/16 = t²
t = 10/4 = 2.5 s
so the object takes 2.5 seconds to fall, accelerating at 32 ft/sec²
and so its terminal velocity is 32(2.5) = 80 ft/sec
and its kinetic energy at that point is
E = ½mv²
E = ½•20•80²
E = 64,000 lbs ft²/sec²
and then divide by the 32 ft/sec² gravitational constant to get
E = 2000 ft-lbs

Using Shutter's equation above but assuming that the speed at impact is 180+ MPH (15,840 ft/sec), the final value for E is E=78,408,000 ft-lb.  A noticeable difference.  As a no-pull, Cooper's terminal speed at impact would also be the same as the money bag (assuming it is tied to Cooper) and Cooper would make a hole.

I think Tom checked his bills for signs of impact (compression) and found no evidence of same.

As I see this, water pressure is not the only potential cause of rotation. Other forces could have caused the same effect. In fact, perhaps other bills would show different patterns of rotation for their adjacent bills? Tom only had three bills - it's hard to generalise from three bills.

Last time I checked 180mph freefall v = 264 feet per second? see attached

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:54:40 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #891 on: April 05, 2015, 12:47:54 AM »
I'm just taking a guess, I figured with, or without Cooper the bag would surely impact hard, even in water.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #892 on: April 05, 2015, 01:12:45 AM »
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A 20 pound object falls 100 feet, how many foot pounds are generated at impact?

solving h = 16t²,
100/16 = t²
t = 10/4 = 2.5 s
so the object takes 2.5 seconds to fall, accelerating at 32 ft/sec²
and so its terminal velocity is 32(2.5) = 80 ft/sec
and its kinetic energy at that point is
E = ½mv²
E = ½•20•80²
E = 64,000 lbs ft²/sec²
and then divide by the 32 ft/sec² gravitational constant to get
E = 2000 ft-lbs

Using Shutter's equation above but assuming that the speed at impact is 180+ MPH (15,840 ft/sec), the final value for E is E=78,408,000 ft-lb.  A noticeable difference.  As a no-pull, Cooper's terminal speed at impact would also be the same as the money bag (assuming it is tied to Cooper) and Cooper would make a hole.

I think Tom checked his bills for signs of impact (compression) and found no evidence of same.

As I see this, water pressure is not the only potential cause of rotation. Other forces could have caused the same effect. In fact, perhaps other bills would show different patterns of rotation for their adjacent bills? Tom only had three bills - it's hard to generalise from three bills.

Last time I checked 180mph freefall v = 264 feet per second? see attached

Okay, so I forgot to divide by 60 which resulted in my velocity being in feet/minute rather than feet/second.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #893 on: April 05, 2015, 02:10:15 AM »
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A 20 pound object falls 100 feet, how many foot pounds are generated at impact?

solving h = 16t²,
100/16 = t²
t = 10/4 = 2.5 s
so the object takes 2.5 seconds to fall, accelerating at 32 ft/sec²
and so its terminal velocity is 32(2.5) = 80 ft/sec
and its kinetic energy at that point is
E = ½mv²
E = ½•20•80²
E = 64,000 lbs ft²/sec²
and then divide by the 32 ft/sec² gravitational constant to get
E = 2000 ft-lbs

Using Shutter's equation above but assuming that the speed at impact is 180+ MPH (15,840 ft/sec), the final value for E is E=78,408,000 ft-lb.  A noticeable difference.  As a no-pull, Cooper's terminal speed at impact would also be the same as the money bag (assuming it is tied to Cooper) and Cooper would make a hole.

I think Tom checked his bills for signs of impact (compression) and found no evidence of same.

As I see this, water pressure is not the only potential cause of rotation. Other forces could have caused the same effect. In fact, perhaps other bills would show different patterns of rotation for their adjacent bills? Tom only had three bills - it's hard to generalise from three bills.

Last time I checked 180mph freefall v = 264 feet per second? see attached

Okay, so I forgot to divide by 60 which resulted in my velocity being in feet/minute rather than feet/second.

If you calculate for kinetic energy you get a similar result to the above ... now to make this meaningful you need to express this in potential work. Would this be enough energy to split the bag? Unlikely. How would a package of money the size and volume of the cooper money be expected to take the shock? How big a puddle, crater, etc would this make in what material? ...... Lots of questions of this nature follow but its always useful to translate calculations into actual work, so people have some practical reference to what the numbers mean ....

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:12:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #894 on: April 05, 2015, 10:02:57 AM »
Quote
If you calculate for kinetic energy you get a similar result to the above ... now to make this meaningful you need to express this in potential work. Would this be enough energy to split the bag? Unlikely. How would a package of money the size and volume of the cooper money be expected to take the shock? How big a puddle, crater, etc would this make in what material? ...... Lots of questions of this nature follow but its always useful to translate calculations into actual work, so people have some practical reference to what the numbers mean ....

I don't think anyone really has taken any consideration as to what would happen to the bag from such a fall. depending on how he tied it would be a factor, it could of escaped through the weakest point, that would be where he tied the bag shut.

As for a crater? I've never seen a body bore through solid ground. it's very unforgiving. it will break your fall though  :D :D
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #895 on: April 05, 2015, 10:56:14 AM »
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I've always been a fan of Safe's theory, that there's no possible way the money could have gotten there thru any natural means. The money was moved. Chards in other places or not, the only known fact from Tina Bar is the three bundles were found in relatively close proximity to each other if not on top of one another. The fact that the rubber bands were still in tact supports that it wasn't there the entire time or even since the dredge, in fact from the Slueths work one could say it wasn't there for more than a year. If it wasn't moved the jump time and flight path would have to be significantly off and one would have to explain how the rubber bands didn't disintegrate completely.
The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.  The Sleuths results on many things are confusing much of the time and sometimes just wrong.  Sometimes brilliant people can lack common sense and perspective.  You need look no farther than the statement that the Cooper suspect's body was snagged on the propeller of a freighter and moved up stream. 

It's time we looked at the work of the Citizen Sleuths as a whole and ask these questions:  Has the work of the Sleuths moved the Cooper Case forward, providing suspects and clarity?  Or, have the Sleuth's inaccurate results muddied the waters, leading investigators to pursue suspects which don't exist with "facts" that don't make sense?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #896 on: April 05, 2015, 11:05:54 AM »
Quote
The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.

I'm wondering if they were digging a fire pit you would think once he disturbed the money the bands would of fell off, and not even noticed? kind of leaves the question, "are you sure this is what happened" ? :'( just a though.....
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #897 on: April 05, 2015, 11:16:13 AM »
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Quote
The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.

I'm wondering if they were digging a fire pit you would think once he disturbed the money the bands would of fell off, and not even noticed? kind of leaves the question, "are you sure this is what happened" ? :'( just a though.....
I may be speaking out of school on this, so I'll have to check, but I was under the impression that the bills were stuck (clumped) together and the rubber bands crumbled when touched. 

Once the money was encased in sand, the rubber bands would no longer be needed to hold the bundles together, they could deteriorate and fall apart with no effect on the bundles.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #898 on: April 05, 2015, 11:25:13 AM »
I'm sure Georger knows, I'm wondering where the Ingram's lived at the time?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #899 on: April 05, 2015, 11:33:49 AM »
One of the problems I have is the fact of no evidence of the bands seem to exist? you can't see any indication of them on the 12 stacks. where are the fragments, in Washington?

Shouldn't the top bills show discoloration if they were there the whole time, sort of like a "Tan Line" ?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 11:35:11 AM by shutter »