Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1797169 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2475 on: December 22, 2016, 09:10:00 PM »
A dedicated thread will be made for the project. I will be either deleting. or merging some older threads (house cleaning) in the coming new year.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2476 on: December 23, 2016, 12:14:16 AM »
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The conditions (layers) may have changed over the years, but that happened as well back in that period, plus the usual suspects (insects) should still be around.

Tom Kaye did a good job with his testing, but this type of test was never done. I think this is critical in helping find out what happened to the money. I have a spot picked out that should be close enough for the test. Georger will be notified for confirming the area, or spot as a good test area.

we can argue for couple more years about what we think happened, or we can step up to the plate and find out what happened. I tend to go with option 2.

I would try and duplicate the upper sand layers Palmer identifies, as much as possible - because those layers define an ecological zone. For example, Tom already noted that the 'holes' seen in the bills were being caused by a bacterium indigenous to the upper sand layer zone.

Distance from the river line, tidal zone, and seasonal wetness are also important - because they also are components of the ecological zone in which the Ingram bundles and some fragments were found.

Document everything with photos and gps as best you can. Save sand samples from each site for comparison later..  when taking sand samples use sterile baggies and be generous. Photograph each site and its surroundings with written notes etc. Take samples of water from nearby water sources for examination ... yes I know its a lot of work but validation pays off in the end.


 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:31:09 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2477 on: December 23, 2016, 12:15:39 AM »
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Thanks, Meyer, we have already discussed a lot of the specifics, so we are close to moving forward with this project. perhaps, we can start the year off with the test itself.

Meyer has volunteered to take the lead with planting the money, so a lot of credit goes to Meyer for stepping up to the plate in helping make this become reality.

I'll wait for Georger's thoughts, but I was thinking of checking the status of the money 4 times a year, or every 3 months? several things will be done to insure the best data we can get, so I'm looking forward to the final conclusion of this....

Sounds good - Merry Everything to Everyone.
 
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Offline brbducksfan

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2478 on: December 23, 2016, 02:06:27 AM »
Very cool experiment.  My only suggestions would be to do some homework regarding the composition of the paper and the inks on the paper to make it as close as possible to the $ of 45ish years ago (money has evolved a lot in the last 25 years to fight counterfeiting).  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login has made U.S. current for 200 plus years...it might be worth reaching out to them regarding this experiment.  Merry Xmas all!
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2479 on: December 23, 2016, 06:03:56 AM »
If you look at the bills I'm not sure ink will be an issue. it doesn't appear to have done any damage. perhaps, some currency from that circa can be found easily?

Georger, does brbducks have a point here?

$1 bill from 1969 runs about $4 right now. should we purchase a few, or all of them need to be from that circa?

I was thinking about a name for the project...how about "operation T-Bill"
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 06:49:25 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline brbducksfan

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2480 on: December 23, 2016, 11:54:58 AM »
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If you look at the bills I'm not sure ink will be an issue. it doesn't appear to have done any damage. perhaps, some currency from that circa can be found easily?

Georger, does brbducks have a point here?

$1 bill from 1969 runs about $4 right now. should we purchase a few, or all of them need to be from that circa?

I was thinking about a name for the project...how about "operation T-Bill"

T-bill - that's funny!  No, I wouldn't purchase bills from 1969...even in perfect conditions, that's a bill with 47 years worth of aging (vs 3 years worth of aging if we assume the $ hit the beach in 1972). U.S. currency paper has always been cotton / linen based...what I don't know is if the paper composition formula is different now vs. then.  Current is 75/25 blend.  You can buy paper now with that composition. With the inks, digital technology with currency has only been in play for about 10 years or so, and I do think modern $ would age differently than $ made w/ prior technology because of that.  I'd suggest finding the comparable ink used then, 'stamping' it onto 75/25 paper (assuming the paper formula is the same), and cutting it to size.  This gets you 'new' paper to put in the sand.  Also, being a lot cheaper than using real $, you could add more variations to the experiment.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2481 on: December 23, 2016, 12:15:03 PM »
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If you look at the bills I'm not sure ink will be an issue. it doesn't appear to have done any damage. perhaps, some currency from that circa can be found easily?

Georger, does brbducks have a point here?

$1 bill from 1969 runs about $4 right now. should we purchase a few, or all of them need to be from that circa?

I was thinking about a name for the project...how about "operation T-Bill"

Actually yes, he has a point. Paper money chemistry has changed over the years, actually its a cloth,  but Im not sure what you can do about it or if it matters. I can make a call to a paper expert after the holidays if you want? 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:16:17 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2482 on: December 23, 2016, 12:28:25 PM »
Dave-Meyer, how many parcels of bills are you planning on using in this experiment? I may have an idea.. for testing the three main theories about how money got to Tina Bar ?

1. Schreuder: Dredging theory - spent time in the Columbia before being deposited on Tina Bar.
2. R99: spent time elsewhere before migrating to Tina Bar via hydrology.
3. Tom: Was always on Tina Bar.

Lets get input from as many people as possible, R99, Tom, etc ... as a foundation.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:50:12 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2483 on: December 23, 2016, 01:07:45 PM »
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Dave-Meyer, how many parcels of bills are you planning on using in this experiment? I may have an idea.. for testing the three main theories about how money got to Tina Bar ?

1. Schreuder: Dredging theory - spent time in the Columbia before being deposited on Tina Bar.
2. R99: spent time elsewhere before migrating to Tina Bar via hydrology.
3. Tom: Was always on Tina Bar.

Lets get input from as many people as possible, R99, Tom, etc ... as a foundation.

I'll try to do a few additional posts on the flight path thread before the end of the year in order to explain more fully what I think happened about the flight path, the jump, where Cooper landed, and how the money eventually made it to Tina Bar.

If paper, or whatever, that is somewhat similar to currency paper is available, perhaps we could think up some tests where the bills would not be buried but stay on the surface.  More on this later.

Robert99
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2484 on: December 23, 2016, 03:03:44 PM »
I'm going to be working with US currency, not any type of substitute.

At present....I was thinking of two bundles. one that would be uncovered for progress, and another sample untouched with the rubber band on it. this way we would see what happens once it's uncovered and handled. the other sample will be dug up multiple times to check the status, so it will be disturbed a lot.

what amount would be a good bundle 10,20 etc.

what ever can be added will also run along side this test....what ever it takes to get answers...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 03:12:08 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2485 on: December 23, 2016, 07:56:26 PM »
Burial Experiment

Good idea everyone! I am excited to see this forum doing a new experiment instead of arguing about old stuff. Predictions are an important part of this process. If you have a good handle on what is going on, then your predictions should play out in the experiment. If they don't you are not looking at the situation clearly.  My thoughts below:

1. My suggestion is to only bury real currency. I would however get some original time period bills, some bills from the 80's or 90's and some modern ones. This will tell you if there is a big difference in the degradation of modern vs older bills. If there is no difference then additional experiments can be with modern bills.
2. In our research the ink did not seem to have any effect on the degradation process. I would not be too concerned about that.
3. No matter who's theory you believe (unless you think the Ingram's buried the money) the bills were out in nature and under the sand for at least a couple years. The holes in the bills proceeded very slowly otherwise there would have been nothing left. We saw holes in all stages of formation. If the experiment shows holes or ones starting to form, the info should allow us to extrapolate how long the original bills were buried. Lets say after a year we JUST start to see holes forming, then you can confirm that holes all the way through would take multiple years etc.
4. Tension on the rubber bands mattered. I would put multiple bands on each bundle under different tensions. We have bands made to similar specs to the originals we can donate to the experiment.
5. Bills covered by other bills were well protected. I don't think you have to go more than 5-6 bills thick for a stack. Maybe have one stack of modern ones full thickness as a control.
6. We have bills buried in Tena beach sand now since 2009 so about 7 years. I pulled them out last year to give them a look and they were remarkably well preserved. This suggests that water and sand alone will not degrade the bills to the extent seen in the Cooper bills. Biologic factors are most likely the degraders.
7. If our theories are right, and the dredging replenished the sand on the beach, it might be  hard to keep them buried just a few inches below the sand today. I would bury aluminum tin foil balls near the money so you can find them again with a metal locator. If the money goes downstream so will the balls and you will know what happened.
8. I would also cut the bills in half so outsiders reading this forum will not go looking for "cash" buried on TB.
9. Make sure to mark each bundle with indelible marker serial numbers so you can keep them all straight.
10. Take pictures when you are burying them for orientation, serial number and depth.
11. If at all possible it would be better to not rebury the bundles but remove them one at a time and hold them. That way you can get a degradation profile that can be extrapolated.

That is all I can think of now.

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 07:58:36 PM by Tom Kaye »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2486 on: December 23, 2016, 08:00:45 PM »

Hello Tom.

one of the concerns I have is the amount of bills vs rubber bands. a small stack will not suppurt a rubber band and will likely fold?
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2487 on: December 23, 2016, 08:03:10 PM »
FYI the Expedition Unknown Cooper version will be airing most likely in Jan from what they told me. It will have brand new factual information we uncovered. You will probably find it as interesting as we did. We will be releasing all the details for you to chew on when the show airs. Under legal contract not to say anything so that is it for now. If someone sees a commercial for it please let me know.

thanks,

Tom Kaye
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2488 on: December 23, 2016, 08:05:39 PM »
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one of the concerns I have is the amount of bills vs rubber bands. a small stack will not suppurt a rubber band and will likely fold?
Possibly, might need something like a piece of wire to hold it in place etc. If you cut a 5 stack into 3-4 sections you could stack those up to beef it up.

Tom
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2489 on: December 23, 2016, 08:06:53 PM »
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one of the concerns I have is the amount of bills vs rubber bands. a small stack will not suppurt a rubber band and will likely fold?
Possibly, might need something like a piece of wire to hold it in place etc. If you cut a 5 stack into 3-4 sections you could stack those up to beef it up.

Tom

Okay, will do...Thanks Tom