Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1797193 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2460 on: December 17, 2016, 10:50:19 PM »
Haggar, I did say that, but you are failing to prove anything....I like to go by things that can be verified. this will tie up the thread with constant back and forth arguements about things that you can't verify.

If you want to play that game then perhaps you can recall this quote from you?


Quote
I would like to share Hager's story of what really happened with you (and anyone else that wants to hear it) but I am not sure anyone here really wants to hear it. If that's the case, I won't waste my time here anymore.

lol

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2461 on: December 17, 2016, 10:51:34 PM »
You need to start showing some sort of proof of what you are claiming. a story is nothing but a story if it can't be backed up....you are talking like all the others where you hold the key to the case, and we don't want to hear it...same old story, no?

You are exactly like the other story tellers...I touched a nerve, you don't want the truth, naysayers, detractors etc. etc. you guys always try and reverse the problem. the problem is lack of proof...

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 10:56:59 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2462 on: December 17, 2016, 11:25:40 PM »
DerekGodsey12, and nicky tried to tell a story as well. the latest on Derek is he's using another name now, third one I believe. they also hold the key to everything, and get mad when confronted, or use the "I touched a nerve" thingy.

Jo Weber was notorious for the "not wanting the truth" how can so many hold the truth, I'm the wrong one here?

most tell the story and then get upset when holes start showing, and the "I hit a nerve" pops up? the burden of proof is on the person telling the story, or the claim.
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2463 on: December 17, 2016, 11:32:13 PM »
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IMO, I sometimes see people tell stories that try and fill the empty void needed to resolve this case. most of the time, if not all of the time they lack any real proof behind the story. I am very skeptical by nature, so I need proof when people say things.

I see people tell the whole story based on things they have investigated. they speak for all of them, they just want you to rely on what they say. I find this extremely troubling. Blevins (1504) takes the cake on this one. not ONE of his witnesses have come forward to tell THERE side, or to confirm what he has been saying. records have shown that he lies, and takes things out of context constantly, so his credibility is zero.

so it's hard for me to just take the word of someone's story....proof is required...

... especially when the proof of the Fazio sand business and sand being moved around on the Fazio property 1970-1980, can be had with one or two phone calls!

                              If you are talking about a phone call to the Fazio's, would you really expect them to fess up to something that at best was shady , and probably borderline illegal?

Are you claiming the Fazios were living in a cave secluded from the world, neighbors, officials, etc etc etc? And that their area of the Columbia was unpatrolled, unmonitored, and unregulated? Guess again on all counts! My family knew the Fazios and were on their property constantly for years along with undreds and thousands of people who knew and interacted with Al and his brother daily/weekly, over decades.  :))

Any claim that the Fazios (a very well known family crucially located on the Columbia close to Portland-Vancover !) were operating in a vacuum is total bs. 

If you have actual evidence of something bring it on.  :))

Did the Fazios always know what was going on on their property 24-7 over decades - of course not. That alone opens a wide window to all kinds of claims like those you are making. You could also claim Himmelsbach planted the money at Tina Bar ... because it was close to his office!  :-*   
     
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:50:34 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2464 on: December 17, 2016, 11:40:38 PM »
It's all "undocumented", or " do you think they would say anything"..it's just set up so you can't verify anything. it's nothing new to the Cooper story as you know...
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2465 on: December 17, 2016, 11:55:56 PM »
Quote
  Lol   Sounds like I touched a nerve. I do find it humorous that in a previous post you stated that this is an open forum  where anyone can present their story, yet when it is a story you don't want to hear you cut them off.(I am not just talking about my story). Don't worry ,you won't hear from me anymore.  I don't really like to deal with hypocrites.  goodbye

Now, before you go, yes, I can see you even when you are not signed in...

when I said I was done with this, that meant I was done with arguing with you over something you haven't a clue about. it had nothing to do with stopping you from commenting further. the "hypocrite" comment is not valid. you can run away, but it doesn't resolve your problem. it makes you look bad running away.

You are still more than welcome to post, but you will be asked to verify things. if you don't wish to do that, then I guess you will do as you said, and leave. I can't tell you what to do.

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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2466 on: December 18, 2016, 12:18:54 AM »
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Quote
  Lol   Sounds like I touched a nerve. I do find it humorous that in a previous post you stated that this is an open forum  where anyone can present their story, yet when it is a story you don't want to hear you cut them off.(I am not just talking about my story). Don't worry ,you won't hear from me anymore.  I don't really like to deal with hypocrites.  goodbye

Now, before you go, yes, I can see you even when you are not signed in...

when I said I was done with this, that meant I was done with arguing with you over something you haven't a clue about. it had nothing to do with stopping you from commenting further. the "hypocrite" comment is not valid. you can run away, but it doesn't resolve your problem. it makes you look bad running away.

You are still more than welcome to post, but you will be asked to verify things. if you don't wish to do that, then I guess you will do as you said, and leave. I can't tell you what to do.

Its not the first time someone has alleged the Fazios were up to something, involved in illegal activity, and taking and moving sand around their property illegally - those charges surfaced at Dropzone. Has anyone ever produced one item of proof of anything? Not so far. I will even go so far as to say the Fazios did not always follow the letter of the law during their long career, but I have nothing to substantiate that aside from random probability in the course of human affairs - going back 4 million years ... 

In contrast to that we do know the 1974 dredging-deposits happened. We know 305 crossed the Columbia and the bail out was probably not too far ahead of that event. We know lots of stuff washes up on Tina Bar every year naturally and there are some facts of geography and hydrology that favor that. We know that All Fazio said it appeared to him that the Ingram bundles were found on the last high tide line (the bundles were wet and the sand was still wet there). There is a whole file drawer of facts and documentation and photographs of that area that document that area 1970-80. Salvage people and others worked the area in addition to the Fazios!

If Hagar has something real let him produce something real that can be tested... rather than cut-and-run at the first sign of the fact-police showing up.  :(       
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 12:24:15 AM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2467 on: December 18, 2016, 12:29:29 AM »
His claims are not valid. to believe that dredging could go on undocumented, which does mean unauthorized in the Columbia is stretching it a bit too far. it takes time to set a dredge up. this is not like hunting out of season where you have a better chance of not getting caught.

Lets say the river was dredged 50 times, what does this prove? if you are trying to prove the dredge theory, it's right there for the taking...1974? I was mistaken about Haggar, I didn't think he would act in the manor he did. where will he go now with all that proof of who Cooper was? another gatekeeper to solving the case...poof  ::)

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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2468 on: December 18, 2016, 01:45:07 AM »
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His claims are not valid. to believe that dredging could go on undocumented, which does mean unauthorized in the Columbia is stretching it a bit too far. it takes time to set a dredge up. this is not like hunting out of season where you have a better chance of not getting caught.

Lets say the river was dredged 50 times, what does this prove? if you are trying to prove the dredge theory, it's right there for the taking...1974? I was mistaken about Haggar, I didn't think he would act in the manor he did. where will he go now with all that proof of who Cooper was? another gatekeeper to solving the case...poof  ::)
Hagarknew is correct about one thing - you did tell him people were free to come here and post something. So he came here and posted 'something' whatever it was!

Hagarknew but Hagarnevertold. My guess is Hagarknew will be on a podcast with in soon.   ;)


 

     

« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:15:50 AM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2469 on: December 18, 2016, 09:58:06 AM »
It's wild how someone gets so involved with a story told to them. my grandfather was full of whoppers like Blevins tells. I believed them until I asked, or told my mom, or dad about them. I never did reveal the truth to him about his stories.

everything becomes fact and they start to get upset like it was a family member, in some cases it is, but it's strange how protective they become.
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2470 on: December 18, 2016, 01:43:13 PM »
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It's wild how someone gets so involved with a story told to them. my grandfather was full of whoppers like Blevins tells. I believed them until I asked, or told my mom, or dad about them. I never did reveal the truth to him about his stories.

everything becomes fact and they start to get upset like it was a family member, in some cases it is, but it's strange how protective they become.

Hagar's contention, as far as he developed it, is that 'the Fazios were involved with the money being on their property, or had some prior knowledge of it', and may have even been responsible for it. That contention is not new. Then Hagar refused to give any details that would amplify this story. He cut and run when the fact-police showed up.  :)) 
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2471 on: December 22, 2016, 02:20:21 PM »
Dave asked - somewhere on this forum - what conditions should be duplicated if burying new bills?

The original beach condition may be difficult to find or duplicate today due to changes at T_Bar since 1980. The conditions Palmer found at the Ingram site would be: 20-40ft from water line and 8-24" inches of "porous" sand (not clay) "below" the buried bills - see chart attached.

It would be important that any new bills be buried in porous "sand" that has no clay content. The money must be within reach of the normal tide line at a site which is subject to seasonal high water rises.

Those are the basic conditions I can think of.
 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 02:21:52 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2472 on: December 22, 2016, 08:44:34 PM »
The conditions (layers) may have changed over the years, but that happened as well back in that period, plus the usual suspects (insects) should still be around.

Tom Kaye did a good job with his testing, but this type of test was never done. I think this is critical in helping find out what happened to the money. I have a spot picked out that should be close enough for the test. Georger will be notified for confirming the area, or spot as a good test area.

we can argue for couple more years about what we think happened, or we can step up to the plate and find out what happened. I tend to go with option 2.
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2473 on: December 22, 2016, 08:52:59 PM »
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The conditions (layers) may have changed over the years, but that happened as well back in that period, plus the usual suspects (insects) should still be around.

Tom Kaye did a good job with his testing, but this type of test was never done. I think this is critical in helping find out what happened to the money. I have a spot picked out that should be close enough for the test. Georger will be notified for confirming the area, or spot as a good test area.

we can argue for couple more years about what we think happened, or we can step up to the plate and find out what happened. I tend to go with option 2.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shutter: 

I am in total agreement with what you're saying here.  Count me in.  We just might get some new information and insights.  Time to get it together. 

Meyer
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2474 on: December 22, 2016, 09:03:28 PM »
Thanks, Meyer, we have already discussed a lot of the specifics, so we are close to moving forward with this project. perhaps, we can start the year off with the test itself.

Meyer has volunteered to take the lead with planting the money, so a lot of credit goes to Meyer for stepping up to the plate in helping make this become reality.

I'll wait for Georger's thoughts, but I was thinking of checking the status of the money 4 times a year, or every 3 months? several things will be done to insure the best data we can get, so I'm looking forward to the final conclusion of this....
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