Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1842148 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2250 on: August 06, 2016, 03:16:46 PM »
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I think the three bundles were what the Flight Crew aboard the 727 refused to accept from DB Cooper in thanks for their time in the DB caper. He then stuffed the three bundles into his shirt and used it later (when on the ground) to thank  the  father (Dwayne) for giving him a lift (escape) to Portland following the skyjacking. The finding the money on the beach was Dwayne's way to getting some paid money for the three bundles. Just watch Dwayne telling his story in the History Channel program. I can't believe him and that is why a "plant on Tina's beach" and was what made me vote for plant.

Bob Sailshaw
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Interesting theory.  Why wait 9 years to plant the money though?


It could of been buried there earlier and then dug up and planted for dwayne that would possibly explain the shards...

moved around by moles and the Molemen no doubt!  :))

A more likely scenario is that Harold had been tipped off by somebody, or heard a rumor, that money had been found at Tina Bar ... so he went out there to look for himself. That might lead to the group Harold and Pat associated with which he would rather doesn't get discussed publicly. Harold now admits someone told him about Tina Bar and he went out there on his own to check the place out, prior to taking his family there. So he had been told about Tina Bar and had been there before taking his family there. I agree Harold is holding something back, just as he and the family held back bills and didnt turn in everything they had at first ... that is well documented. 

I think Harold is his own worst enemy! If Harold would tell the whole story, the truthful version, he may have a few facts that would have been helpful in determining the nature of Cooper money being at Tena Bar, but the opportunity for Harold being helpful has long-since passed! It would be difficult to believe anything he says now.

Pat Ingram and Brian were helpful to Agent Carr in straightening out whether the money had paper bands vs rubber bands on the found money. That small issue got clarified in 2008-09, with the Ingram's help.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 04:05:01 PM by georger »
 

Offline brbducksfan

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2251 on: August 06, 2016, 05:44:33 PM »
I'm taking Georger's advice and reading through the entire discussion.  I saw a Tom Kaye post that said the fragments they saw were minimal...

Q1)how does this compare to the recently released tv footage showing the shards at the different depths/locations (my apologies, my DBC interest started after this video was apparently pulled from YouTube)?

Q2) do we know if the fragments are from the 3 stacks of $ found on Tina Bar, or from other DBC $?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2252 on: August 06, 2016, 07:38:19 PM »
The vast number of shards found at Tina Bar are now missing, apparently. PIO Dorwin Schreuder said thousands of money fragments were found and placed into Plasticine envelopes. The KATU video confirms that. However, none of the envelopes, nor any of these shards were found by the Citizens Sleuths in the evidence box in Seattle. Carol Abracadabra told me that she thought the so-called "shards" that were in evidence were actually the residuals of crumbling of the main bills. All of the "pieces" the feds had in Seattle could fit in a small plastic box the size of a small match box. What she described to me sounded essentially like "dust."

As for Harold/Dwayne Ingram truthiness: If he planted the money, how and where did he age it? Or did Briggs/Rackstraw just plant it somewhere, and what he have found is how it decayed wherever it was, and not necessarily by natural means at T-Bar?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 07:39:26 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2253 on: August 06, 2016, 11:30:28 PM »
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The vast number of shards found at Tina Bar are now missing, apparently. PIO Dorwin Schreuder said thousands of money fragments were found and placed into Plasticine envelopes. The KATU video confirms that. However, none of the envelopes, nor any of these shards were found by the Citizens Sleuths in the evidence box in Seattle. Carol Abracadabra told me that she thought the so-called "shards" that were in evidence were actually the residuals of crumbling of the main bills. All of the "pieces" the feds had in Seattle could fit in a small plastic box the size of a small match box. What she described to me sounded essentially like "dust."

As for Harold/Dwayne Ingram truthiness: If he planted the money, how and where did he age it? Or did Briggs/Rackstraw just plant it somewhere, and what he have found is how it decayed wherever it was, and not necessarily by natural means at T-Bar?

Carol is wrong. How would she know anything about this? But, what she is repeating is Brian Ingram's explanation. How would Brian know? He doesn't know. It's just his theory on the matter.... unless he's holding information his father told him but failed to tell the FBI and the world?

The numbers of pieces, their locations and depths, could not have come from the bundles Ingram found. The better explanation would be that the Ingram bundles and all of these pieces were part of a larger group of money that somehow made it's way to Tena Bar and got distributed through many strata layers, somehow. Tom Kaye has consistently said he thinks the money was on Tena Bar early, perhaps before the dredging at Tena Bar in 1974.

As I understand Tom, Tom believes the Cooper money arrived before 1974. And in fact there were periods of massive flooding with very high water levels between the end of 71 and before any dredging spoils were placed on TBar in August of 1974, so there was ample opportunity for a wash-in scenario during those years. Second, Tom also believes erosion at Tena Bar has always been fast and significant (and I agree with that). We just dont have any real numbers on the rate of erosion at Tena Bar but serious erosion has always been a fact of life at Tena Bar. Thus, Tom believes the Ingram money eroded out of pre-1974 strata due to erosion, and this was north and unaffected by any dredging materials dumped in 1974. Tom believes that by 1980 most of the dredging spoils from 74 had washed away, leaving pre-74 strata still intact 100-150 yards north of the 74 dredge spoil site. Tom believes that Palmer mistakenly assigned his clay layer to the dredging layer when in fact the clay layer was an older pre-1974 layer, but that none of this was involved at the Ingram site in any event.

Tom thinks the sand layers at the Ingram site were all pre-1974 layers still intact. Then through erosion of these layers, the Ingram money was finally exposed. That scenario would allow for deeper fragments being found in the vicinity of the Ingram site out to about 50-60+ yards stretching south towards the 1974 dredging spoil site. If Tom is correct in all of this then the Cooper money was on Tena Bar earlier than 1974. It's all a matter of interpretation based on crucial identification of strata at various locations, which so far we lack and are debating ... but Tom could be correct because I agree with Tom - erosion at Tena Bar is a significant variable in this story however it unfolded in different locations perhaps exposing Cooper money to the surface in 1980.

It's a little complicated but the central basic issues at stake are frankly pretty simple, if we could just answer a few of the critical questions involved.
   
BTW: the Fazio's said they had never seen money or heard any reports of money on their sandbar. Al Fazio has told everyone he thought the money came up with the last tide because (he said) 'the money was found on the tide line'. Tidal forces are one of the erosion forces at work on Tena Bar. But, in 2009 nobody had seen the KATU video and while the Fazios were on the scene and helped with the excavation, they apparently didn't think to connect or explain the fragments being found at 2 feet and deeper, or they didn't think it mattered? The Faxzios weren't think about erosion; they were thinking about placement and deposition. But, the Fazio's originally thought the tide had brought the money up, somehow. I asked Al Fazio, "well do you mean in debris?" (money came up with the tide mixed in with debris, and he replied "No. The tide just brought the money up itself".  He had no further explanation.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 12:52:31 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2254 on: August 07, 2016, 04:27:28 AM »
Georger, I think you misunderstand what I said about Carol Abracadabra. She told me she didn't see the "shards," as described by Dorwin, in Seattle when she was there with the Citizen Sleuths. There were no Plasticine envelopes. The only thing in evidence that she saw was a little plastic box with some very tiny, itsy-bitsy particles of money that she thought was most likely detritus that had flaked off the 14 "large" bills the FBI has in evidence.

I agree with you on the notion of where the T-Bar shards came from - most likely another bundle or two of money, separate from the three bundles that Brian found. So, we are talking about at least five - or more - bundles arriving at T-Bar in some fashion. Perhaps it was one event that brought them all, or two closely related events that weren't separated by too much time. One group of three ended up above the other, which got Cuisinart-ed somewhere into little pieces and schmooshed into the sand column and spread out.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 04:28:18 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2255 on: August 07, 2016, 04:32:31 AM »
As this discussion continues, it appears to me that the most likely process of how the money got to T-Bar was some deposition event within a few years of the skyjacking - dredge or not - and eventual erosion that allowed the three bills to be discovered on February 10, 1980, and not before. Plus, if Brian - or anyone else - hadn't found them before the next flood or hydrological event, the three bundolas would have been washed away, never to be found.

Which begs the question - how many bundles washed away before Brian found La Tres Bundolas?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 04:33:21 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2256 on: August 07, 2016, 04:52:47 AM »
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Georger, I think you misunderstand what I said about Carol Abracadabra. She told me she didn't see the "shards," as described by Dorwin, in Seattle when she was there with the Citizen Sleuths. There were no Plasticine envelopes. The only thing in evidence that she saw was a little plastic box with some very tiny, itsy-bitsy particles of money that she thought was most likely detritus that had flaked off the 14 "large" bills the FBI has in evidence.

I agree with you on the notion of where the T-Bar shards came from - most likely another bundle or two of money, separate from the three bundles that Brian found. So, we are talking about at least five - or more - bundles arriving at T-Bar in some fashion. Perhaps it was one event that brought them all, or two closely related events that weren't separated by too much time. One group of three ended up above the other, which got Cuisinart-ed somewhere into little pieces and schmooshed into the sand column and spread out.

Carol is repeating Brian Ingram's line that any fragments found came from his bundles, period, whatever her reasons are.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 04:54:12 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2257 on: August 07, 2016, 05:17:32 AM »
Hunh?

Yes, the shards that Carol saw in Seattle all came from the bundles that the FBI had received from Brian, BUT years after they had been retrieved from T-Bar. These bits were created circa post-1986 and the court settlement, and were most likely caused by inadequate storage in Seattle.

These were not the shards that were found at T-Bar in 1980. I think you are confusing the shard fields. In actuality, there are two shard fields - one at T-Bar and discovered Feb 10-13, 1980 and covering 40-foot in diameter, and the second shard field was discovered in Seattle, in a little tiny box in the evidence room that was less than 3 inches long, found by the Citizen Sleuths in 2009-2011.

That is my understanding, based upon what Carol told me in Portland in 2011.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 05:26:09 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2258 on: August 07, 2016, 11:20:26 AM »
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Hunh?

Yes, the shards that Carol saw in Seattle all came from the bundles that the FBI had received from Brian, BUT years after they had been retrieved from T-Bar. These bits were created circa post-1986 and the court settlement, and were most likely caused by inadequate storage in Seattle.

These were not the shards that were found at T-Bar in 1980. I think you are confusing the shard fields. In actuality, there are two shard fields - one at T-Bar and discovered Feb 10-13, 1980 and covering 40-foot in diameter, and the second shard field was discovered in Seattle, in a little tiny box in the evidence room that was less than 3 inches long, found by the Citizen Sleuths in 2009-2011.

That is my understanding, based upon what Carol told me in Portland in 2011.

Bruce you are playing semantic games with this - as far as I know nobody knows what the origin of the bill-dust in the tiny box at Seattle is from ... unless maybe it is bits and pieces from the evidence folders? Maybe somebody told Carol that and that is what Carol is talking about. And yes maybe that is all from the Ingram money. If that is what Carol is saying then yes she is probably right. The residue from the evidence folders may have been poured into a plastic box at some time, maybe?

How does any of that shed light on the frags in plastic evidence envelopes that was shown in the video? Dorwin already said he thought those envelopes may have been sent to Washington for analysis, but he wasn't sure.

Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing!   

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2259 on: August 07, 2016, 11:27:02 AM »
It appears to me that Seattle kept a minimal amount of pieces, while others were sent to different locations for testing. the butts, and the cup never made it back to Seattle, So I don't believe Seattle was considered to be the resting place for all the Cooper material?

If they ever prosecuted Cooper, would this happen in Washington (Seattle)? if so, they would have enough proof there to proceed?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 11:28:01 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2260 on: August 07, 2016, 11:37:52 PM »
Hello All,

While Georger's description of what we think happened to the money on Tena Bar is accurate, his comment that Carol A. didn't have any facts on the money shards is completely false. We ALL SAW THE MONEY FRAGMENTS period, end of story.  I just went back and looked at our pics and there are two small plastic boxes. One is marked '<1mm' and has dust size fragments in it. The other is marked '+1mm' and has larger fragments in it, maybe a thimble full.  Besides that there is a larger sandwich size plastic bag that is labeled '2mm' and has about 10 small pieces in it. From a scientific standpoint this is how you would organize and store evidence. There is no hint that there are other unseen bags, boxes or otherwise of fragments.  We have every reason to assume that Larry brought out all he had for solid evidence. He told us the only thing we couldn't see was the paperwork on the thousands of suspects because personal info was private.

 I would upload a pic but it seems you are not hosting pictures on this forum and it is too much of a hassle to post it somewhere else.

Tom Kaye
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2261 on: August 07, 2016, 11:41:36 PM »
Hi Tom

What do you mean about the pics, do you mean "image urls" what can't you post photo wise?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2262 on: August 08, 2016, 12:13:37 AM »
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Hello All,

While Georger's description of what we think happened to the money on Tena Bar is accurate, his comment that Carol A. didn't have any facts on the money shards is completely false. We ALL SAW THE MONEY FRAGMENTS period, end of story.  I just went back and looked at our pics and there are two small plastic boxes. One is marked '<1mm' and has dust size fragments in it. The other is marked '+1mm' and has larger fragments in it, maybe a thimble full.  Besides that there is a larger sandwich size plastic bag that is labeled '2mm' and has about 10 small pieces in it. From a scientific standpoint this is how you would organize and store evidence. There is no hint that there are other unseen bags, boxes or otherwise of fragments.  We have every reason to assume that Larry brought out all he had for solid evidence. He told us the only thing we couldn't see was the paperwork on the thousands of suspects because personal info was private.

 I would upload a pic but it seems you are not hosting pictures on this forum and it is too much of a hassle to post it somewhere else.

Tom Kaye

Tom, let's cut the bullshit here. This is not some semantic game.

Are you claiming the two tiny boxes of dust were ALL of the "fragments" collected at Tina Bar, including those shown in plastic "check" envelopes on the KATU video?

 The last time you were here you said you would have to consult with The Team before commenting on the KATU video. What's the result of that. How do you explain the KATU video? Is it real or a hoax, to you?
 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:39:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2263 on: August 08, 2016, 12:40:34 AM »

Shutter,
Usually you can upload directly to the forum. It seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that you only allow links to pics from another location. If I am wrong please let me know.

TK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2264 on: August 08, 2016, 12:42:55 AM »
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Shutter,
Usually you can upload directly to the forum. It seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that you only allow links to pics from another location. If I am wrong please let me know.

TK


Yes, you can post pics....look under the posting box to the left...."attachments and other options" click on that, and you can load photo's....