Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1664997 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2055 on: June 26, 2016, 04:59:17 PM »
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It's my understanding they used a front loader. I'm guess they distributed piles of sand, and then graded the area. when the sand was pumped onto the beach, the money could have moved or floated all over the place during these actions. it wouldn't be localized in one area on the spoil. this is also speculation...

I doubt the money floated onto the beach if it came from the bottom. it would have to of been brought up by machinery, and not naturally IMO.

Shutter, Your last sentence is 100 percent correct.

If the money was LOWER than the location it was found at, energy would have to be added to the money to elevate it to that location.

However, if the money was ABOVE the location it was found at, gravity would take care of moving it down to the found location.

Thats possible but when? Other strata had to form over it particularly closer to the water line where erosion is greatest, to have shards being found at say two feet close to the water line.

We need a sectional profile of the strata on this sandbar! Dont know how many times I have to say it!

One thing I am noting and seeing in this video is that two types of 'pieces' are being found. Pieces of single bills, some shown, and thicker small pieces representing multiple bills - one could call then 'shards' or 'clumps'. The finding of a 'piece of a stack of bills' is noted - this fits with what Dorwin told me. Its hard to imagine that all of these pieces or shards and a piece of a stack came off the Ingram bundles to wind up at various locations vs. the Ingram bundles being part of what was once a larger field of bills and pieces and perhaps parts of bundles? The distribution of these pieces does not favor the Ingram bundles being the sole source of it all. We are looking at another mechanism here.   
 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 05:02:15 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2056 on: June 26, 2016, 05:19:34 PM »
Transcript of Video:

KATU Channel Two News  Portland – KATU Live 5:04 Feb 14, 1980
Segment 1 – 5:02:
Anchor: ….. this missing Cooper money has sent the FBI on an intensive search, of course, to try and find more of the missing $200,000 dollars. Our reporter Bill Van Amburg is with the searchers in the State of Washington and he has a report … he has the report now on what’s been happening in that part of the country since the money was found … Bill tell us where are you.

Van Amburg:  [Running commentary live}: Its been a madhouse .. we’re about five miles .. you have to excuse the bad quality of our audio but we’re way up about five miles north uh.. west of Vancouver along the Columbia River .. we are right at the site where the FBI is digging at this moment … those aren’t treasure hunters those are FBI agents with the shovels … Carl Whitman our photographer maybe we can walk up here and get maybe a closer look … I think that’ll give you a better idea of what’s going on ..  now we talked about it maybe washing up and that’s the theory at the moment of it being naturally but they have just within the last few minutes found some dollar bills and money uh.. fairly deep down several feet so maybe its been washing down for a long time but uh it’s a few inches below the surface and they found some very deteriorated bills very low down now I would guess a foot and a half to maybe two feet deep at the most and that’s where they’re digging now … as I said they have been finding little bits and pieces of bills just in the last half hour or so.. we’ll be able to show you some of those bills maybe later on but right now that’s the effort that’s going on .. they’ll stay out here until oh about sunset some time until it gets dark then they’ll post some FBI agents out and that should be just to guard it until tomorrow morning .. they’re going to be digging up this entire section of beach .. maybe Carl if we could take a look and show just how big it is .. its been a mad house out here and you can see people all over the place it was a circus earlier on in the day  people didn’t know what was going on uh the FBI brought the family out [the Ingrams] early this morning, they started their digging efforts again, and they just have been going over the entire area very methodically over this entire section of beach .. they have it roped off completely now, and we’ll be back later for more details but the FBI is looking to see if they can find any more of this socalled ‘buried treasure’, back to you …

Anchor:  Bill you said they had found “bits of bills” now, are those “bits” they found of twenty dollar bills ?
Van Amburg:  Apparently so Richard, they have found, on the ones they can even tell, they know its money, but on some they have found serial numbers, apparently it matches serial numbers of the other DB Cooper twenty dollar bills but there’s so little of it all you’d be able to see is maybe a tiny little section about this size with the numbers on it nothing like an entire dollar bill at all.. [holds his index finger and thumb up to show a circle about the size of a quarter].
Anchor: Ok, thank you Bill, its an exciting story …

Segment 2 –  KATU live c5:34
Anchor:  Well you heard about the find of some of the DB Cooper stolen money out along the banks of the Columbia just north of Vancouver, our reporter Bill VanAmburg is on the scene along with a lot of FBI agents uh and it looks like they are still digging for more paper, right?

VanAmburg:  That’s exactly what you see there Richard, they are digging for more these are FBI agents just trying to see if they can find any more money and they have.. just within the last hour or so they have been finding little chunks little bit and pieces of DB Cooper’s twenty dollar bills all over the place we should have some uh pictures uh of them digging some up … ok here you see them digging they’re finding  [ camera pans to group digging about 10ft from waters edge] .. but that’s what it looks like [agent holding a fragment in palm of his hand] those tiny little bits of bills right there that you’re seeing, [agent says: yea here’s a piece, yea here ya go Mike…] that’s a piece (inaudible) that’s a all the size, that you’d be finding out here. Its very very tiny sections. [agents talking in background]…  [agents: bills there that just deteriorated .. holds up his fingers showing a small size..]  Ok, that’s about, as you saw, that’s as tiny as it is, those are just little tiny pieces uh I have with me now .. Dorwin Shro.uh .Shrayder .. eh I have trouble with those kind a names he’s the agent in charge of the scene here [Dorwin holding up a check envelope to the camera with pieces of money inside]  uh if we can get a shot here this is what we are talking about these  are the sizes that they have found .. [camera showing close-up of plastic envelope] now the original stuff found by the family out here on the beach was larger this is all we’ve found so far a lot of these small type bills now also another envelope (reporter rushing things) .. now of we can just move this in …

Schreuder:  (cuts reporter off trying to take a second plastic envelope from Schreuder’s hand .. Schreuder begins speaking) yea, this is the largest piece that we have found so far [holding a piece of bill in his fingers he removed from one plastic envelope]. Uh it has, all, almost the entire serial number on it but most of the pieces are very much smaller about the size of a dime or even smaller.

Reporter: Are you sure that the twenty dollar bills (are) from the DB Cooper bunch? [Schreuder]: Yes we are because they are in the same vicinity where the original large quantity of money was found and we were able to find many-many serial numbers on that money, so we know its the same. [Reporter]: Let me just ask you one other thing. A lot of this earlier, the larger bills were found closer to the surface, these later ones down lower – how long ago might it have been that they were buried? [Schreuder]: That’s only speculation. But we can say that uh some of this money was found two and three feet deep in the sand, without consulting an authority on the river I would just guess it would be four or five uh six years. [Reporter]: Ok well that’s the way it looks right now …
Reporter: They’ll be breaking off this digging in about two three more minutes, tomorrow they may be bringing in a backhoe or they may keep digging by hand, but they are going to see how much of DB Cooper’s money they can find buried here north of Vancouver – this is Bill VanAmburg back to you.
Anchor: Alright thank you Bill.   
   
Segment 3: KATU live – late in day 6:35 Feb 13, 1980
VanAmburg:  We’re uh its uh as we’ve been telling you late this afternoon and on through the afternoon its uh a small beach on the Columbia river just uh about five miles east on the levee from Vancouver uh actually west, Im sorry, west along the levee, uh you can see right now the FBI agents are guarding the scene but not digging now its just too dark up here, they plan to come back tomorrow morning and resume their digging – they may bring a backhoe or a tractor  they’ve been doing it with shovels it’s a very slow process there’s a good 100 yard section of beach they have to work on. Now we’ve been down here later this afternoon and you can see here (behind me) this is where they were finding actual live little pieces of these uhhh dollar bills, twenty dollar bills from DB Cooper. But that’s how small they were. Little teeny sections but you see them pouring into the bag right there (FBI station parked in the background). It was a tedious effort just trying to uh dig up all of these uhhh they went down at one point two feet deep and all they were finding was these little moldy pieces some of them smaller than a dime. But many of them had serial numbers on them – you can seeing raking through here it was almost like an archaeological dig. (long pause)  and there they’re coming up with yet another piece … (video so dark you cant see anything) … they have uh filled little plastic bags with bits and pieces of these twenty dollar bills they’re sure they came from DB Cooper – they think they washed up several years ago maybe as many as five years ago maybe on the side of the beach here. And here the FBI agents you are seeing behind me here, think they washed up uh some of them coming into the uhh the area on the surface, some of them a lot lower, and they’ve been just slowly washing up. But that’s the way it looks. Its been an exciting day out here and they plan to be out here tomorrow and they have an entire beach to do uhhh David you’ve been covering the story and I understand it just a it almost puts an end to some of the speculation and takes away some of the charm out of the D B Cooper myth that’s been going on. Uh David ? (David doesn’t appear on camera and no audio from David…)   … (very long pause no audio) …
Uh right now its uh its like a green treasure hunt. Chances are there’s that money all along the Columbia shores or up along some of the tributaries up in southern Washington but they don’t know exactly where it might take another freak accident like this one. Once they clear what they think to be a sizable area along this beach they don’t think there’s any use in digging the entire shoreline along the Columbia river. The more money there could be from here to Astoria – that’s what they are saying. (long pause … he waves the camera to stop filming).

Segment 4: CBS report: date ?
A new search began in earnest today for DB Cooper, nine years after the skyjacker parachuted into the Pacific Northwest with over $200,000 dollars in ransom money. The FBI is encouraged by new leads in the long search for Cooper and for the cash. Here’s Royal Kennedy.

Kennedy:  Spurred on by their first clue in eight years FBI agents were out early this morning digging for the DB Cooper ransom. They are hoping to turn up more of the weather beaten twenty dollar bills found Sunday. (shows fragment found by agent) The FBI now believes the money was carried down by the Columbia River and was thrown up on the beach with the sand when the river was dredged. It may have been here for years. The bits and pieces of money the FBI agents might find here do not bring them much closer to cracking this case. But, they represent new hope for the man who has made a career out of  searching for DB Cooper.

Just two weeks before his retirement, Agent Ralph Himmelsbach takes satisfaction in the belief that for DB Cooper crime did not pay.
[abrupt end of video]   

Segment 5: 6:35 – KATU live
Anchor: Good evening. Hope is running high tonight that new leads will be found in the legendary DB Cooper hijacking case. The FBI has found more bits of that $200,000 extortion money given to Cooper during the 1971 skyjacking. Now our reporter Bill Van Amburg is right now on the shores of the Columbia River near Vancouver where FBI agents have dug up more clues. Bill what’s the latest in this search to solve the mystery?

VanAmburg:  Well the latest right now is that they have not found as much as they had hoped to today. The three thousand dollars that was found Sunday at this very site where this stake is you see next to me (video too dark to see anything!) was found by a young boy and his father a Vancouver family out having a picnic they brushed aside some sand and there it was, not much since then just little pieces. Now they have dug down you can see here next to me I think, very! deep about two or three feet into the sand but most of the pieces of money they found have been up near the surface and they have not found much else beyond that $3000 dollar bundle they found at first although they did find a small piece of a stack earlier on today. Now it wasn’t quite as much of a circus out at the scene as it was yesterday – Jim Kyner? And Robin Anderson? were out earlier on, very early in fact with the first FBI agents when they got up this morning … yea dug a huge trench. What they were trying to find out is if there was any money down below a certain level where their 1974 dredge marks were – there was none. So basically they think this money that has arrived here came probably in the last storm we had, washed up by storm and flooding action, and deposited here on the beach. They also don’t think that DB Cooper landed on the west side of the ridge near Ariel Washington he probably landed further to the east and that’s how money maybe got down this far, because otherwise it would have washed up down to the south.  Now there is one man, an FBI agent, who has been spending most of his life covering DB Cooper  since 1971, Kathy (inaudible? ?) went down to talk to him today about what this all means.

Shows Himmelsbach and video ends …
   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2057 on: June 26, 2016, 05:53:00 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to make the transcripts...have you put them into a PDF, or Word format yet? I'll post it in the vault.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2058 on: June 26, 2016, 06:47:05 PM »
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Thanks for taking the time to make the transcripts...have you put them into a PDF, or Word format yet? I'll post it in the vault.

Will email you a file tonight ... thanks!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2059 on: June 26, 2016, 07:16:39 PM »
Here is a time lapse of a beach being leveled with sand...imagine there were bundles of money in these piles....


 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2060 on: June 26, 2016, 08:40:17 PM »
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Transcript of Video:

KATU Channel Two News  Portland – KATU Live 5:04 Feb 14, 1980
Segment 1 – 5:02:
...
   

Thanks, G. Yeoman's work. Much appreciated.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2061 on: June 26, 2016, 08:45:35 PM »
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I doubt the money floated onto the beach if it came from the bottom. it would have to of been brought up by machinery, and not naturally IMO.

Shutter, Your last sentence is 100 percent correct.

If the money was LOWER than the location it was found at, energy would have to be added to the money to elevate it to that location.

However, if the money was ABOVE the location it was found at, gravity would take care of moving it down to the found location.


Thats possible but when? Other strata had to form over it particularly closer to the water line where erosion is greatest, to have shards being found at say two feet close to the water line.

We need a sectional profile of the strata on this sandbar! Dont know how many times I have to say it!

One thing I am noting and seeing in this video is that two types of 'pieces' are being found. Pieces of single bills, some shown, and thicker small pieces representing multiple bills - one could call then 'shards' or 'clumps'. The finding of a 'piece of a stack of bills' is noted - this fits with what Dorwin told me. Its hard to imagine that all of these pieces or shards and a piece of a stack came off the Ingram bundles to wind up at various locations vs. the Ingram bundles being part of what was once a larger field of bills and pieces and perhaps parts of bundles? The distribution of these pieces does not favor the Ingram bundles being the sole source of it all. We are looking at another mechanism here.   


I'm eager to hear of the possible mechanisms. Exciting to think that a variety of dynamics are at play here.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 08:46:26 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2062 on: June 26, 2016, 11:46:49 PM »
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Here is a time lapse of a beach being leveled with sand...imagine there were bundles of money in these piles....




Nice. Funny  :)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2063 on: June 26, 2016, 11:57:53 PM »
Time lapse is a little wacky, but as you watch the video you can see that sand goes from one place to another, including different levels. it's possible that the money could have been pushed all around the beach as they leveled the sand. just tossing it it into the pot....
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 11:58:19 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2064 on: June 27, 2016, 12:03:22 AM »
Tom, do you know if anyone searched all around Tena bar, as in beyond the beach up into the tree's, and around the property? just wondering if they had the same idea as R99 and looked for a body, or bones?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2065 on: June 27, 2016, 09:03:45 AM »
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I knew sooner or later video of the money find would show up.....Yahtzee 8) 8) 8) 8)





I'm having a hard time getting over the coincidence that the money was found on the bank of a river about five miles (or less) downstream of where flight 305 crossed and in an area of dredge spoils.  I'm not feeling the "plant" theory at all.  It sounds like something someone would make up to fit the previously known "facts" of the find and to promote their suspect.  That leaves flooding, R99's gravity theory, and dredging.  Any other theories still in play that I missed?  Maybe we should do another poll? 

A few months back, I thought Georger mentioned Palmer's description of his interpretation of the "layers".  Georger, do you have that information available? 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2066 on: June 27, 2016, 10:58:11 AM »
Georger's information on the layers is on our site...


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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2067 on: June 27, 2016, 01:06:09 PM »
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Georger's information on the layers is on our site...


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I think one of Tom's chart should be added to that archive - I will forward it if Tom doesnt care. Give me some time to dredge it up - is busy and very hot here today.

If anyone else has charts/photos etc they think crucial bring them up ...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2068 on: June 27, 2016, 03:59:34 PM »
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I knew sooner or later video of the money find would show up.....Yahtzee 8) 8) 8) 8)





I'm having a hard time getting over the coincidence that the money was found on the bank of a river about five miles (or less) downstream of where flight 305 crossed and in an area of dredge spoils.  I'm not feeling the "plant" theory at all.  It sounds like something someone would make up to fit the previously known "facts" of the find and to promote their suspect.  That leaves flooding, R99's gravity theory, and dredging.  Any other theories still in play that I missed?  Maybe we should do another poll? 

A few months back, I thought Georger mentioned Palmer's description of his interpretation of the "layers".  Georger, do you have that information available?

Palmer made no attempt, apparently, to explain the fragments being found. It isn't addressed in the version of his report we have. He seems to agree with the final statement by the reporter on the scene that 'most of the pieces were found at or near the surface' in the same layer the Ingram bundles were found in. This leaves all pieces found at a deeper level (2-3 feet) in complete limbo without any satisfactory explanation. Moreover the location of those deep fragments is important.

And all of this is occurring (north? down stream) of the north-most 1974 dredging pile.

In every case, it seems to me, these deeper fragments are being found at a depth close to where the 1974 dredging boundary layer should be? Everything above that depth layer has been subject to multiple hydrological events, some amount of hydrological mixing, and erosion. *If I understand Tom correctly, he even believes the Ingram money was close to the surface as a result of years of erosion and quite possibly had originally been deposited before 1974?

These deep fragments tend to agree with an earlier deposition scenario? And, it is very unlikely that multiple wash-ins would bring 'everything' to just one location, in and around the Ingram find only, coincidentally just down stream of a 1974 dredging spoil placement, on the very long sand bar (Tina's Bar) where there is plenty of linear space for things to 'wash up' on! Why only at the Ingram location unless some single specific event can account for it? And the one specific event that did occur close to there was the deposit of dredging spoils in 1974.

I think the probabilities favor a single specific event over all other options, and that specific event was the 1974 dredging. The 1978-79 flood cannot account for any fragments occurring at 2-3 feet deep? 

R99's problem is he must show how multiple wash-ins occurred over time, from some area on land then to Tina Bar .. all winding up in the Ingram location alone. That is going to be very difficult to prove, statistically.
 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:14:04 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2069 on: June 27, 2016, 04:56:24 PM »
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I knew sooner or later video of the money find would show up.....Yahtzee 8) 8) 8) 8)





I'm having a hard time getting over the coincidence that the money was found on the bank of a river about five miles (or less) downstream of where flight 305 crossed and in an area of dredge spoils.  I'm not feeling the "plant" theory at all.  It sounds like something someone would make up to fit the previously known "facts" of the find and to promote their suspect.  That leaves flooding, R99's gravity theory, and dredging.  Any other theories still in play that I missed?  Maybe we should do another poll? 

A few months back, I thought Georger mentioned Palmer's description of his interpretation of the "layers".  Georger, do you have that information available?

Palmer made no attempt, apparently, to explain the fragments being found. It isn't addressed in the version of his report we have. He seems to agree with the final statement by the reporter on the scene that 'most of the pieces were found at or near the surface' in the same layer the Ingram bundles were found in. This leaves all pieces found at a deeper level (2-3 feet) in complete limbo without any satisfactory explanation. Moreover the location of those deep fragments is important.

And all of this is occurring (north? down stream) of the north-most 1974 dredging pile.

In every case, it seems to me, these deeper fragments are being found at a depth close to where the 1974 dredging boundary layer should be? Everything above that depth layer has been subject to multiple hydrological events, some amount of hydrological mixing, and erosion. *If I understand Tom correctly, he even believes the Ingram money was close to the surface as a result of years of erosion and quite possibly had originally been deposited before 1974?

These deep fragments tend to agree with an earlier deposition scenario? And, it is very unlikely that multiple wash-ins would bring 'everything' to just one location, in and around the Ingram find only, coincidentally just down stream of a 1974 dredging spoil placement, on the very long sand bar (Tina's Bar) where there is plenty of linear space for things to 'wash up' on! Why only at the Ingram location unless some single specific event can account for it? And the one specific event that did occur close to there was the deposit of dredging spoils in 1974.

I think the probabilities favor a single specific event over all other options, and that specific event was the 1974 dredging. The 1978-79 flood cannot account for any fragments occurring at 2-3 feet deep? 

R99's problem is he must show how multiple wash-ins occurred over time, from some area on land then to Tina Bar .. all winding up in the Ingram location alone. That is going to be very difficult to prove, statistically.
 

Okay!  I'll start writing up my "final" say on the Cooper matter.  There will be a number of long posts, may as many as 10, and I want to post all of them at the same time.  So save some reading time between next week and maybe the weekend of July 4th.