Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 829328 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6750 on: February 24, 2022, 11:23:31 PM »
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If we take TKs latest diatom research paper using 377's Cooper bill at face value, he specifically excludes several theories, but one that he does not seem exclude specifically is the dredge.

My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows:  (feel free to correct)

- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle.  He draws this conclusion based
on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. 

- That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.

- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill.  This diatom species is
active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.

- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.

- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. 

- There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill.  This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based
 diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water).

If the above is true, or at least for sake of discussion, (understanding that everything is debatable and the testing was limited in scope in
terms of it being conducted on only one Cooper bill), can we fit it into a dredge scenario ? 

- Could these three bundles still have been in the main bank bag or
does the evidence pointing to the fanning of the packet require that the packets were free from the bag or parachute wrapping?

I think it could also fit into the scenario where the money was somewhere on dry land, and
transported via one of the spring/summer flood events that have been discussed before.  At the time of this flood event, the money would have been saturated, fanned out, exposed to planktonic diatoms and then transported to rest at the area of Tena bar at which time it unfanned and perhaps buried by a few inches of sand that settled on top as the flood waters receded and congealed. 

But more questions I haven't seen an answer to:

- How long does it take for money to congeal ? 
- What conditions are required for congealing ? 
- If money fans out while under water, does it eventually sink and unfan ? 
- Or does unfanning only take place if it is out of water ?
- Can Asterionella or other diatoms live at the bottom of the Colombia River, does sun light reach the bottom ?

Sorry for the long post, just thinking out loud...

What is a sand based diatom - got an example?   

all of your other questions should go to Tom Kaye or one of the Mayors of Cooperville @ Mountain News: Bruce Smith and Marla site.   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 05:35:12 AM by georger »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6751 on: February 25, 2022, 06:34:42 AM »
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If we take TKs latest diatom research paper using 377's Cooper bill at face value, he specifically excludes several theories, but one that he does not seem exclude specifically is the dredge.

My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows:  (feel free to correct)

- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle.  He draws this conclusion based
on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. 

- That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.

- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill.  This diatom species is
active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.

- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.

- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. 

- There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill.  This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based
 diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water).

If the above is true, or at least for sake of discussion, (understanding that everything is debatable and the testing was limited in scope in
terms of it being conducted on only one Cooper bill), can we fit it into a dredge scenario ? 

- Could these three bundles still have been in the main bank bag or
does the evidence pointing to the fanning of the packet require that the packets were free from the bag or parachute wrapping?

I think it could also fit into the scenario where the money was somewhere on dry land, and
transported via one of the spring/summer flood events that have been discussed before.  At the time of this flood event, the money would have been saturated, fanned out, exposed to planktonic diatoms and then transported to rest at the area of Tena bar at which time it unfanned and perhaps buried by a few inches of sand that settled on top as the flood waters receded and congealed. 

But more questions I haven't seen an answer to:

- How long does it take for money to congeal ? 
- What conditions are required for congealing ? 
- If money fans out while under water, does it eventually sink and unfan ? 
- Or does unfanning only take place if it is out of water ?
- Can Asterionella or other diatoms live at the bottom of the Colombia River, does sun light reach the bottom ?

Sorry for the long post, just thinking out loud...

What is a sand based diatom - got an example?   

all of your other questions should go to Tom Kaye or one of the Mayors of Cooperville @ Mountain News: Bruce Smith and Marla site.

Thanks Georger, I guess the sand based term was something I used to represent Tom's discussion about smaller vs larger diatoms (I suppose it's not an official term :-) ).  Where the general point was that smaller diatoms (those smaller than 3 to 5 µm) could live and move between the sand particles where as the larger diatoms would not be able to do this.  One example of the smaller diatom cited in the paper is Melosira.

If I am reading it correctly, the following quote from page 4 identifies these species as smaller diatoms:

"The diatom extraction from the surface sand at Tena Bar showed an abundance of smaller diatoms most below
5 µm in length
(Fig. 3C). Genera in order of abundance, Navicula, Cocconeis, Cymbella and Nitzschia."


BTW, for anyone that may not know the paper being discussed, here is a link to the PDF:
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6752 on: February 25, 2022, 05:13:44 PM »
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If we take TKs latest diatom research paper using 377's Cooper bill at face value, he specifically excludes several theories, but one that he does not seem exclude specifically is the dredge.

My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows:  (feel free to correct)

- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle.  He draws this conclusion based
on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. 

- That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.

- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill.  This diatom species is
active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.

- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.

- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. 

- There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill.  This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based
 diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water).

If the above is true, or at least for sake of discussion, (understanding that everything is debatable and the testing was limited in scope in
terms of it being conducted on only one Cooper bill), can we fit it into a dredge scenario ? 

- Could these three bundles still have been in the main bank bag or
does the evidence pointing to the fanning of the packet require that the packets were free from the bag or parachute wrapping?

I think it could also fit into the scenario where the money was somewhere on dry land, and
transported via one of the spring/summer flood events that have been discussed before.  At the time of this flood event, the money would have been saturated, fanned out, exposed to planktonic diatoms and then transported to rest at the area of Tena bar at which time it unfanned and perhaps buried by a few inches of sand that settled on top as the flood waters receded and congealed. 

But more questions I haven't seen an answer to:

- How long does it take for money to congeal ? 
- What conditions are required for congealing ? 
- If money fans out while under water, does it eventually sink and unfan ? 
- Or does unfanning only take place if it is out of water ?
- Can Asterionella or other diatoms live at the bottom of the Colombia River, does sun light reach the bottom ?

Sorry for the long post, just thinking out loud...

What is a sand based diatom - got an example?   

all of your other questions should go to Tom Kaye or one of the Mayors of Cooperville @ Mountain News: Bruce Smith and Marla site.

Thanks Georger, I guess the sand based term was something I used to represent Tom's discussion about smaller vs larger diatoms (I suppose it's not an official term :-) ).  Where the general point was that smaller diatoms (those smaller than 3 to 5 µm) could live and move between the sand particles where as the larger diatoms would not be able to do this.  One example of the smaller diatom cited in the paper is Melosira.

If I am reading it correctly, the following quote from page 4 identifies these species as smaller diatoms:

"The diatom extraction from the surface sand at Tena Bar showed an abundance of smaller diatoms most below
5 µm in length
(Fig. 3C). Genera in order of abundance, Navicula, Cocconeis, Cymbella and Nitzschia."


BTW, for anyone that may not know the paper being discussed, here is a link to the PDF:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
good work -

just for reference it would have been nice had Tom pulled samples of the strata he saw in his photo below (in 2008?) to see what diatoms are in them vs. diatoms found on the Cooper bill. Would it prove anything? No. But I like random exercises because I have a curious nature.

The upper active layer in Palmer's strata represents what time period ? Palmer only said 'recent'. The cross bedded layer below the recent upper active layer represents what layer of time? Palmer never said. Ton has never said. Cross bedded layers require time to lay down, representing multiple water events spread out over time. The next consolidated layer below the cross bedded layer, Palmer identified at the clay dredging spoils layer he said was established in 1974. (Tom says thats all wrong). Are there diatoms like the Cooper bill diatoms in all of these layers? Why didnt Tom check that out?   

Food for thought - for the curious!  8)     
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 05:18:47 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6753 on: March 06, 2022, 01:10:02 PM »
Soil bulb mites as trace evidence for the location of buried money
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6754 on: March 06, 2022, 01:51:40 PM »
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Soil bulb mites as trace evidence for the location of buried money
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see-  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6755 on: March 08, 2022, 05:18:55 AM »
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What if Gryder has indeed solved this?  Why would McCoys daughter lie?  At this stage?   Gryder is correct that this case is never going to be solved forensically.  It does seem incredible they simply lost those cigarettes, even though in the 70s they had no clue about DNA.  But to shoot down McCoy being Cooper simply on the word of the FBI saying where he was is just ridiculous.  Mr Gryder has put together a very compelling argument.  The money being dropped makes sense.  Pretty much everything in this episode makes sense.

DB Fan: We can assume that there is only one DB Cooper.  Therefore given all the suspects and confessions and family alibis, someone is lying.  Or, people are confused or remember things differently.  So why is McCoy's family any more trustworthy than the other families?

My observations here revolve around the totality of evidence/information, or whatever we want to call it.  I don't know of a single suspect that is ruled out simply over one piece of evidence.  There seems to be this belief out there that McCoy was only ruled out due to the alibi, and therefore if the alibi is proven wrong, then he is DB Cooper.  Do people really think that the FBI ruled him out just because he had an alibi?  I know most of us on this forum could list a number of reasons that McCoy is not Cooper.  Even if you disprove his alibi and showed that he worked in a titanium factory, that still does not make him close to being Cooper.  I think it was 377 who said something like "ability does not mean culpability." McCoy is a very interesting guy, but clearly is not Cooper.

You cant really say he is clearly not Cooper. He is by far the best suspect.  My guess is he probably is.  But of course there is no solid forensic proof.  The FBI was not very good on this case, and if you just listen to the late Himelsback or however you spell his name, that is clear as day.  i do not know how he got that job.  I am going to wait and see if Mr Gryder keeps his promise of another video.  I do not trust the son very much.  But the girl seems to be credible. But of course its not proof.  Jut like that Barb transgender that said she did it. Now that one is really out there.  McCoy, is a former Green Beret.  Busted out of freakin Lewisburg.  He was no joke. He could be DB Cooper.  Absolutely
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6756 on: March 08, 2022, 08:52:55 AM »
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Soil bulb mites as trace evidence for the location of buried money
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Interesting, similar strategy to TKs diatom research.

Do mites live in Tena Bar sand ?
Would mites have been visible on the bill that TK tested with his SEM?  Would you have to be specifically looking for them ?
Is it worth checking a TB bill for mites ? What are some possible implications ?  Could it be helpful ?

In TKs early analysis of the money, I believe he indicated that some of the small holes and damage on the money were indicative of bacterial colonies.  I always wondered that if the bacterial colony was identified, could that help determine where the money had been and how long it could have been where it was for the colony to do the amount of damage it had done?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 08:55:50 AM by JAG »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6757 on: March 08, 2022, 01:38:42 PM »
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Soil bulb mites as trace evidence for the location of buried money
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Interesting, similar strategy to TKs diatom research.

Do mites live in Tena Bar sand ?
Would mites have been visible on the bill that TK tested with his SEM?  Would you have to be specifically looking for them ?
Is it worth checking a TB bill for mites ? What are some possible implications ?  Could it be helpful ?

In TKs early analysis of the money, I believe he indicated that some of the small holes and damage on the money were indicative of bacterial colonies.  I always wondered that if the bacterial colony was identified, could that help determine where the money had been and how long it could have been where it was for the colony to do the amount of damage it had done?

Tom hoped spores on the tie would lead to a regional identification - that did not happen.

No bulb mites detected/mentioned in any money report. Money Bacteria work was never completed; still pending. 

*Regarding the fact that the money itself was remarkably well preserved, Professor PALMER advised that sand is sterile, and in nature, is probably the best preservative of any soil.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 01:41:41 PM by georger »
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6758 on: March 19, 2022, 04:49:00 AM »
If Gryder's theory about the money is true there will be nothing left of it if it escaped uncovered after 50 years.  Will never see it again.  And its never turned up.  It seems more likely than it being stored in some upstairs room of a house undiscovered.   And unspent. 
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6759 on: March 20, 2022, 06:17:34 AM »
JAG brings up some interesting questions regarding the money. I am interested as well, regarding bacterial colonies and any pending investigation into such. Any update would be appreciated.
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6760 on: April 07, 2022, 06:32:33 AM »
Not sure if anyone has posted these before, but here are two videos from Coopercon of Tom Kay discussing the diatom research:

Part 1:


Part 2:


 
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Offline JimmyCalhoun1991

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6761 on: July 04, 2022, 01:17:04 AM »
Was in the area today gridding with the Spectra V3i detector through the dense understory of trailing blackberry, dogwood, himalaya blackberry, and horsetail. I find it fascinating that Caterpillar island is so close, with dense foliage and tall cottonwoods. No way was that island ever thoroughly gridded and hit with a good detector. It's a lot of ground to cover, but I am going to kayak across the river and hit the sandbar nearest Tena bar soon, and then begin gridding and hitting the main parts of the island with the machine. Since we now know the money did not hit the water until spring/summer, I think it is possible that it sat on the beach unseen on caterpillar island before eventually getting ferried the short distance across the water to Tena Bar. The river naturally flows this direction, and it would be a real short transport, couple hundred yards or perhaps a wee bit more.

If Cooper cratered into the sand there or somewhere on the island (or just landed and died), there will be things to find even 50 years on. A backpack will have metal clips, a briefcase made of plastic or even leather will still be largely intact, etcetera. Likely won't find anything, but I will test my hypothesis and report back. Cheers
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6762 on: July 04, 2022, 09:26:21 AM »
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Was in the area today gridding with the Spectra V3i detector through the dense understory of trailing blackberry, dogwood, himalaya blackberry, and horsetail. I find it fascinating that Caterpillar island is so close, with dense foliage and tall cottonwoods. No way was that island ever thoroughly gridded and hit with a good detector. It's a lot of ground to cover, but I am going to kayak across the river and hit the sandbar nearest Tena bar soon, and then begin gridding and hitting the main parts of the island with the machine. Since we now know the money did not hit the water until spring/summer, I think it is possible that it sat on the beach unseen on caterpillar island before eventually getting ferried the short distance across the water to Tena Bar. The river naturally flows this direction, and it would be a real short transport, couple hundred yards or perhaps a wee bit more.

If Cooper cratered into the sand there or somewhere on the island (or just landed and died), there will be things to find even 50 years on. A backpack will have metal clips, a briefcase made of plastic or even leather will still be largely intact, etcetera. Likely won't find anything, but I will test my hypothesis and report back. Cheers
I wish you luck.  What you are doing is what really needs to be done in this case.  He had to have left that "bomb" with those red sticks out there somewhere.  Why would he take them with him later?  Good luck.  Its a needle in a stack of haystacks, but someone has to try
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6763 on: July 04, 2022, 03:24:47 PM »
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Was in the area today gridding with the Spectra V3i detector through the dense understory of trailing blackberry, dogwood, himalaya blackberry, and horsetail. I find it fascinating that Caterpillar island is so close, with dense foliage and tall cottonwoods. No way was that island ever thoroughly gridded and hit with a good detector. It's a lot of ground to cover, but I am going to kayak across the river and hit the sandbar nearest Tena bar soon, and then begin gridding and hitting the main parts of the island with the machine. Since we now know the money did not hit the water until spring/summer, I think it is possible that it sat on the beach unseen on caterpillar island before eventually getting ferried the short distance across the water to Tena Bar. The river naturally flows this direction, and it would be a real short transport, couple hundred yards or perhaps a wee bit more.

If Cooper cratered into the sand there or somewhere on the island (or just landed and died), there will be things to find even 50 years on. A backpack will have metal clips, a briefcase made of plastic or even leather will still be largely intact, etcetera. Likely won't find anything, but I will test my hypothesis and report back. Cheers

Jimmy, you are after my own heart.  Here is some information that you may find useful.  The Garrett Company has assured me that their metal detectors can detect an aluminum soft drink can that is buried two feet deep in the sand.  There should be approximately three pounds of metal that would trigger a metal detector in the parachutes Cooper took with him including items in his clothing such as a belt buckle and probably nails in his shoes and they should react more strongly than an aluminum can.

To end up at Tena Bar and coming from Caterpillar Island, the most likely landing places for Cooper would be on the eastern shore of Caterpillar Island and the western shore of the mainland.  It is highly likely that the money could only end up at Tena Bar if it came down this channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

If the money did not end up in the river water itself for several months, then Cooper probably impacted on solid ground about 10 feet above nominal water level or about 12 to 15 feet above sea level.  He would remain at the point of impact until the spring water runoff reached his elevation and moved at least the money bag downstream to Tena Bar.  By that time, neither Cooper or anything related to him would have any flotation capability and would be moving underwater until it snagged something or grounded at the Tena Bar location where the money was found.

About 10 years ago, Dr. Meyer Louie and I went over the dairy runoff containment area, just up the bank from the money find location, with metal detectors and didn't find anything.  That entire area is extremely soft sand.   

Good luck!
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6764 on: July 12, 2022, 02:35:46 PM »
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Was in the area today gridding with the Spectra V3i detector through the dense understory of trailing blackberry, dogwood, himalaya blackberry, and horsetail. I find it fascinating that Caterpillar island is so close, with dense foliage and tall cottonwoods. No way was that island ever thoroughly gridded and hit with a good detector. It's a lot of ground to cover, but I am going to kayak across the river and hit the sandbar nearest Tena bar soon, and then begin gridding and hitting the main parts of the island with the machine. Since we now know the money did not hit the water until spring/summer, I think it is possible that it sat on the beach unseen on caterpillar island before eventually getting ferried the short distance across the water to Tena Bar. The river naturally flows this direction, and it would be a real short transport, couple hundred yards or perhaps a wee bit more.

If Cooper cratered into the sand there or somewhere on the island (or just landed and died), there will be things to find even 50 years on. A backpack will have metal clips, a briefcase made of plastic or even leather will still be largely intact, etcetera. Likely won't find anything, but I will test my hypothesis and report back. Cheers

Jimmy, you are after my own heart.  Here is some information that you may find useful.  The Garrett Company has assured me that their metal detectors can detect an aluminum soft drink can that is buried two feet deep in the sand.  There should be approximately three pounds of metal that would trigger a metal detector in the parachutes Cooper took with him including items in his clothing such as a belt buckle and probably nails in his shoes and they should react more strongly than an aluminum can.

To end up at Tena Bar and coming from Caterpillar Island, the most likely landing places for Cooper would be on the eastern shore of Caterpillar Island and the western shore of the mainland.  It is highly likely that the money could only end up at Tena Bar if it came down this channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

If the money did not end up in the river water itself for several months, then Cooper probably impacted on solid ground about 10 feet above nominal water level or about 12 to 15 feet above sea level.  He would remain at the point of impact until the spring water runoff reached his elevation and moved at least the money bag downstream to Tena Bar.  By that time, neither Cooper or anything related to him would have any flotation capability and would be moving underwater until it snagged something or grounded at the Tena Bar location where the money was found.

About 10 years ago, Dr. Meyer Louie and I went over the dairy runoff containment area, just up the bank from the money find location, with metal detectors and didn't find anything.  That entire area is extremely soft sand.   

Good luck!
I encourage Jimmy to take a look around Caterpillar Island, just for due diligence. However, for Cooper to have landed on Caterpillar Island, it would require moving the flight path of the aircraft several miles west -  of which there is no documented evidence. On the contrary, the preponderance of documented evidence is that Flight 305 flew down Victor 23 and passed over the Columbia River just north of Portland airport.

R99 and I have disagreed vehemently in the past over this, and I don't want to re-kindle any argument with him. We both believe what we believe. The irony is that our theories are virtually identical except for where DBC and/or the money landed that night.

As an aside, dredge spoils were also deposited on the western shore opposite of Tena Bar. That area is pretty remote and untouched. I'm hoping to conduct my own search there this November.

Again, good luck and happy hunting.
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