Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 700734 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6735 on: February 21, 2022, 05:19:13 PM »
The photo is cropped from a larger photo from 1979. I think a lot of people have the photo.

Chaucer, I sent you the map I have that is more detailed on locations of where they are dredging, this includes mile markers..the whole river in mapped out..
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 05:37:20 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6736 on: February 21, 2022, 11:22:23 PM »
The dotted lines are suppose to be where the sand was spread. the Fazio's claim they didn't use much sand on the beach. the mile markers can be seen lightly in the river. I circled them. the markings made were probably estimates since one mark on the west side shows 97.3 very close to the 97 marker, it's in front of 97..the 96.6 is not accurate either.

Someone needs to show this to the Fazio's since they claim they only spread sand 50 yards north and south..
They are in the sand business. not sure why they would spread so much off the beach. that's a huge area cubic feet wise. the large deposit area goes off the Fazio's property..
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 11:33:32 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6737 on: February 21, 2022, 11:45:07 PM »
If the sand was spread past the money location then Palmer found it and the money was above the dredge layer.

This has been the problem for years. if the Fazio's never spread the sand beyond 50 yards, then what did Palmer find?

These are the questions that need to be asked to the Fazio's..
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6738 on: February 21, 2022, 11:50:01 PM »
a little graphic manipulation ... hope ok...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 12:06:23 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6739 on: February 22, 2022, 12:00:53 AM »
Much better, can see most of the map now....

Most of the area in the large deposit area is off the Fazio's property. this would be a huge project calling for most of the sand to cover this area. lots of the sand went back into the river and some remained for several years.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6740 on: February 22, 2022, 12:05:14 AM »
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Much better, can see most of the map now....

Most of the area in the large deposit area is off the Fazio's property. this would be a huge project calling for most of the sand to cover this area. lots of the sand went back into the river and some remained for several years.

I went back and added mile markers .... 97 & 96.

Thats better. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 12:07:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6741 on: February 22, 2022, 01:10:45 AM »
I based my approximate location of the money find "X" on Eric Ulis's spot, rather than Tom Kaye's if that makes a difference.

Also, the 96.6 and 97.1 are names the USACOE gave to the dredge spoil deposit areas. I don't think they are meant to designate exact locations. From the photograph, it seems that the two dotted-lined areas almost blend into one another on the beach.

I still don't see any reason why the money could not have been located on the dredge spoil desposits?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 01:13:30 AM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6742 on: February 22, 2022, 01:47:49 AM »
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I based my approximate location of the money find "X" on Eric Ulis's spot, rather than Tom Kaye's if that makes a difference.

Also, the 96.6 and 97.1 are names the USACOE gave to the dredge spoil deposit areas. I don't think they are meant to designate exact locations. From the photograph, it seems that the two dotted-lined areas almost blend into one another on the beach.

I still don't see any reason why the money could not have been located on the dredge spoil desposits?

If one of the Fazios took Eric Ulis to a spot and identified it as the money find location, then that is probably the correct location or at least the closest to being the correct location.  Several years ago (I think it was 2009), TK and the boy who found the money in 1980 were at Tena Bar together.  TK said the boy was not able to identify the location where he found the money.  So TK had to use old photographs and other means to come up with his estimated GPS coordinates.  And TK's GPS coordinates are currently underwater since that beach has been heavily eroded since 1980.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6743 on: February 22, 2022, 06:32:32 AM »
Tom did the best he could but didn't get the location correct. using old photo's is the only way to find the location. I don't think Tom had all the pics found after his visit, especially the helicopter video which gave valuable information on pinpointing the location.

I have spoken out for years about the conflicts surrounding the spreading of the sand. it's a pretty simple question to ask the Fazio's by taking the photo Tom made showing the spreading of sand 50 yards in each direction and what the map shows on where the sand was placed. I'm not sure why the Fazio's would put so much effort into a majority of the sand being placed on the property next door.

If Palmer was right and the dredge layer was from 1974 then the money was found on top or after 1974 dredge operation just as he explained in 1980.

Ask the Fazio's if they were bound by contract to spread the sand according to the map or were they allowed to use the sand for there business and only spreading a small amount.

Also, show them Tom's findings and the map outlining where the sand was placed, then ask them if Palmer mentioned or asked them anything about the placement of sand.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6744 on: February 22, 2022, 03:00:32 PM »
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Tom did the best he could but didn't get the location correct. using old photo's is the only way to find the location. I don't think Tom had all the pics found after his visit, especially the helicopter video which gave valuable information on pinpointing the location.

I have spoken out for years about the conflicts surrounding the spreading of the sand. it's a pretty simple question to ask the Fazio's by taking the photo Tom made showing the spreading of sand 50 yards in each direction and what the map shows on where the sand was placed. I'm not sure why the Fazio's would put so much effort into a majority of the sand being placed on the property next door.

If Palmer was right and the dredge layer was from 1974 then the money was found on top or after 1974 dredge operation just as he explained in 1980.

Ask the Fazio's if they were bound by contract to spread the sand according to the map or were they allowed to use the sand for there business and only spreading a small amount.

Also, show them Tom's findings and the map outlining where the sand was placed, then ask them if Palmer mentioned or asked them anything about the placement of sand.

Which Fazio brothers did EU talk to? Any that were actually there in 1980 ? And old enough to know anything ?

Nobody has provided an erosion and debris movement model for Tena Bar. Not R99, Palmer, EU, Fazios, TK ........... nobody. The only thing anyone has said is R99 saying: water flows down hill, which doesnt tell us anything about how TBar works and what happened 1971-1980 at Tena Bar!

Shutter is also correct: Shutter's ID of the bent tree shows us the general location where the Ingram find and the Palmer trench near it were.

It seems to me all of the 'experts' except Shutter ...... are all saying different things. Only Shutter has been consistent and factual using video of the actual excavation and landmarks at Tena Bar in 1980.    Likewise, FJ says he thinks dredging spoils were dumped in the area of TBar before 1974 and he might be correct. There is a  lot to consider ...

The 74 dredge spoil sites are clearly visible in this photo by TK.
 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 03:16:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6745 on: February 22, 2022, 04:18:37 PM »
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Tom did the best he could but didn't get the location correct. using old photo's is the only way to find the location. I don't think Tom had all the pics found after his visit, especially the helicopter video which gave valuable information on pinpointing the location.

I have spoken out for years about the conflicts surrounding the spreading of the sand. it's a pretty simple question to ask the Fazio's by taking the photo Tom made showing the spreading of sand 50 yards in each direction and what the map shows on where the sand was placed. I'm not sure why the Fazio's would put so much effort into a majority of the sand being placed on the property next door.

If Palmer was right and the dredge layer was from 1974 then the money was found on top or after 1974 dredge operation just as he explained in 1980.

Ask the Fazio's if they were bound by contract to spread the sand according to the map or were they allowed to use the sand for there business and only spreading a small amount.

Also, show them Tom's findings and the map outlining where the sand was placed, then ask them if Palmer mentioned or asked them anything about the placement of sand.

Which Fazio brothers did EU talk to? Any that were actually there in 1980 ? And old enough to know anything ?

Nobody has provided an erosion and debris movement model for Tena Bar. Not R99, Palmer, EU, Fazios, TK ........... nobody. The only thing anyone has said is R99 saying: water flows down hill, which doesnt tell us anything about how TBar works and what happened 1971-1980 at Tena Bar!

Shutter is also correct: Shutter's ID of the bent tree shows us the general location where the Ingram find and the Palmer trench near it were.

It seems to me all of the 'experts' except Shutter ...... are all saying different things. Only Shutter has been consistent and factual using video of the actual excavation and landmarks at Tena Bar in 1980.    Likewise, FJ says he thinks dredging spoils were dumped in the area of TBar before 1974 and he might be correct. There is a  lot to consider ...

The 74 dredge spoil sites are clearly visible in this photo by TK.

Georger, Eric Ulis has posted here about which Fazio he talked to.  So you can check his posts or PM him if you are on speaking terms with him.  I'm not absolutely certain but I think I learned that water runs downhill in pre-school or maybe even before that.

But thanks for the montage.  Note that there was a large sandy beach at Tena Bar on September 29, 1979, which was about four and one-half months before the money was found there in mid-February 1980.  Also, note that there was almost no sandy beach at Tena Bar when the Goggle picture was taken in 2008.

During TK's visit to Tena Bar in 2009 with the boy who found the money, the beach was completely and totally different.  In 1980, the money was found near the water's edge.  The water's edge in 1980 was probably at least 50 feet further west than it was in 2009.  Plus all the trees on the beach in 1980 were gone.   
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 05:14:29 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6746 on: February 23, 2022, 07:02:12 PM »
Some tree's were still visible in 2009 around the money spot. they were further back from the dig but still very much alive.

I think a certain amount of people have a good grip on where the money was located. Eric, Fly, Chaucer and more than likely Tom by now.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6747 on: February 24, 2022, 02:50:29 PM »
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Some tree's were still visible in 2009 around the money spot. they were further back from the dig but still very much alive.

I think a certain amount of people have a good grip on where the money was located. Eric, Fly, Chaucer and more than likely Tom by now.

.. which raises an important question: How important is it to know the EXACT location of the money/money find? For some it might be important, for others not so much. It depends on what one is trying to accomplish. Independent factoid vs. evidence to support a theory. In EU's case the latter is the case - never been any doubt about that! EU or 'Eric of Portland' as some refer to him, broadcast his theory far and wide in the public media before ever posting about the exact location of the money.

EU says: "I firmly believe that Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the ransom at Tena Bar before walking into town (Vancouver). I also believe that Cooper retrieved the ransom at some point, however, have never had any ideas at what point...."

Tom Kaye's approach and goals have been totally different. Tom has always been interested in defining the money location as part of the larger hydraulic facts at Tena Bar. Tom's ID states:

"The Cooper bundles were found just beneath the sand surface ~15 m (49.2ft) up from the waterline. A sand slope angle of 10d was measured during a site investigation which would place the burial site at ~3 m (9.8ft) vertical above the water line. This location would only be immersed during times of high water and wave action. Dredging operations took place on the river and the sand was dumped slightly upstream of the burial location, and could have contributed to additional sand on top of the bills. Sand is no longer deposited on the beach and it has undergone severe erosion. Rubber bands found intact but degraded  on the bundles suggests (the bundles) were initially buried without any significant exposure to the elements which is known to rapidly degrade (rubber bands)."

Tom's goal is an integrated picture of the money find based on facts, not opinions or theory.

Does any of this matter? How does it matter? And does it matter who knows the money find location or not, like some honor roll of the washed vs unwashed?

We still need an erosion model for Tena Bar as part of a hydraulic model of the place. Everyone talks about erosion but there is still no model of that fr Tena Bar, and without that it is almost as empty as not knowing whether the Earth is round or flat, so far as the Cooper case is concerned!  ;)

Likewise to answer R99's inquiry about what Georger knows or does not know direct from EU's website:

1. It should also be noted that I walked Tena Bar with Richard Fazio on November 23, 2018.
2. Richard described to me that on February 11, 1980, the day after the money was discovered ...
3. This location is 45.718579, -122.759436. In fact, today the precise location of the money find is approximately 10 feet offshore and suspended in the air approximately seven feet above the surface of the Columbia River under normal conditions. (NOTE: These GPS coordinates were derived by locating the spot on Google Earth utilizing my iPhone after leaving the area.)
4. I firmly believe that Cooper landed near Tena Bar and buried the ransom at Tena Bar before walking into town (Vancouver). I also believe that Cooper retrieved the ransom at some point, however, have never had any ideas at what point.

About ten years ago a poll of divers and salvage people intimately familiar with the Columbia at Portland/Vancouver resulted in a 100% agreement that the Cooper money had 'probably' been  delivered to the Fazio Property via the dredging done in 1974. Virtually all of these people had an opinion and had talked to somebody involved in the excavation at Tena Bar in 1980 ... some of the boats seen anchored off shore in new coverage belonged to some of these people, who had gone down to Tena Bar to get a firsthand look at what was going on there, and some of these people engaged FBI agents in discussions . . . did Eric Ulis ever track down and talk to these salvage people? Or Bruce Smith for his book?   

           
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 02:57:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6748 on: February 24, 2022, 04:08:37 PM »
If we take TKs latest diatom research paper using 377's Cooper bill at face value, he specifically excludes several theories, but one that he does not seem exclude specifically is the dredge.

My interpretation of what the diatom paper states is roughly as follows:  (feel free to correct)

- 377s bill was not a top or bottom bill in the packet/bundola, it was from somewhere in the middle.  He draws this conclusion based
on the fact that a diatom was found sandwiched between two pieces of different bills. 

- That the packet experienced water immersion at which time the bill(s) fanned out.

- While the bill(s) was fanned out, planktonic diatoms (Asterionella and others) attached themselves to the bill.  This diatom species is
active in the spring/summer time, therefore the bills only were in the water during the spring/summer time frame.

- At some point, the packet unfanned and the packet congealed back into a compressed form sealing the edges.

- Once the packet was congealed, there is no evidence of diatom's penetrating to the interior of the bill. 

- There is no evidence of sand based diatom species on the bill.  This implies that while the money was buried, no sand based
 diatom species attached (sand based diatom species are smaller than the diatom species that live in the water).

If the above is true, or at least for sake of discussion, (understanding that everything is debatable and the testing was limited in scope in
terms of it being conducted on only one Cooper bill), can we fit it into a dredge scenario ? 

- Could these three bundles still have been in the main bank bag or
does the evidence pointing to the fanning of the packet require that the packets were free from the bag or parachute wrapping?

I think it could also fit into the scenario where the money was somewhere on dry land, and
transported via one of the spring/summer flood events that have been discussed before.  At the time of this flood event, the money would have been saturated, fanned out, exposed to planktonic diatoms and then transported to rest at the area of Tena bar at which time it unfanned and perhaps buried by a few inches of sand that settled on top as the flood waters receded and congealed. 

But more questions I haven't seen an answer to:

- How long does it take for money to congeal ? 
- What conditions are required for congealing ? 
- If money fans out while under water, does it eventually sink and unfan ? 
- Or does unfanning only take place if it is out of water ?
- Can Asterionella or other diatoms live at the bottom of the Colombia River, does sun light reach the bottom ?

Sorry for the long post, just thinking out loud...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 05:27:22 PM by JAG »
 

Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6749 on: February 24, 2022, 10:29:55 PM »
Shutter, does the site have a dark mode?

Pardon the off topic post but I don’t see any other way to contact you. :)