Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 751864 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6690 on: February 04, 2022, 02:39:33 PM »
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Agree, georger. Like I said, nothing illuminating.

I was going to post some interesting photos, but with the site seemingly on the way out, I don't see the point.

agree. who can know!  :o
 

Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6691 on: February 17, 2022, 09:30:13 PM »
How sure are we about money shards being buried three feet deep, and over a large (dozens of feet?) area? 
Is there video? 

Was this above or below the dredge layer?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6692 on: February 18, 2022, 09:20:30 PM »
There is uncertainty on these issues, Herder, but here's what I know:

1. The FBI found multiple shards in the sand after they started digging in and around where Brian found his three bundolas. Those shards, estimated to be about 10 or so, were placed into Plasticine evidence envelopes by FBI agents. We have video confirmation of this from the KATU cameraman who posted his copy on the Internet a few years ago. KATU subsequently forced him to take down the video. These shards and their placement in the beach sand were confirmed by SA Dorwin Schreuder when I spoke with him a few years back. It is my understanding that he has shared similar perspectives with other Cooperites, such as Georger. Whether these shards were found down to a depth of three feet is up for debate. There are bootleg copies of the KATU video floating around.

2. Continuing, Dorwin, who was the PIO for the dig and then later took over the Cooper case from Himmelsbach, told me that they did indeed find money fragments to a depth of three feet and within a radius of about 20 feet from the spot where Brian found his bundolas.

3. SA Ralph Himmelsbach wrote in his book that they found money to a depth of three feet. Al Fazio, however, says that is bullshit. Ironically, Al may have not been on the beach when the money was found at depth, presumably via shovel work, because the FBI had detained him on Lower River Road and was denying him entrance to his property. The timeline for this sequence of events is a bit hazy, though. But when he did arrive, Al and his brother, Richard, were asked to join the dig with their backhoes and then the FBI began digging at depth in a large scale manner.

4. The deep stuff, along with surface shoveling, was sifted through grated boxes, and thousands of teeny money particles were recovered. Those made it to the FBI evidence depository in Seattle and were filmed by the Citizen Sleuths in 2009/2010.

5. Once those 10 shards in envelopes left the beach, they disappeared. No one I have spoken with has ever seen them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:29:59 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6693 on: February 18, 2022, 09:23:36 PM »
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How sure are we about money shards being buried three feet deep, and over a large (dozens of feet?) area? 
Is there video? 

Was this above or below the dredge layer?

Hey PH,

There aren't too many things people are sure of in this case, which I suppose is part of it's charm and the challenge.

WRT the chards, it's a bit of an open or contested topic.  How many chards were there ? Were they part of the 3 packets or were they from other bills distributed by the dredge ?  Were they really 3 feet deep or were they just pushed down there while they agents were digging ?  There is some news footage (video) where an agent is holding a plasticine bag with a decent number of chards in it, a few up to 2 inches in size if I am not mistaken -- nobody seems to know where those chards went as they do not appear to be in evidence.   The clumsy summary I just gave is discussed in great and passionate detail in the several hundred pages of this Tina Bar thread.  You can find a brief video here that has footage from the Tina Bar investigation starting around the 1:10s mark and a picture of the chards at the 1:29s mark:



cheers   ;D

 

Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6694 on: February 18, 2022, 11:20:35 PM »
Thanks Bruce and JAG,

I’ve read a couple hundred pages of this forum and maybe 20 of this thread. But things change over time, so it’s hard to know if what I’ve read is the latest info, has been disproven, etc. I thought I knew enough to ask a couple questions that weren’t too dumb… (I hope…)

Also there’s a lot of bickering here, which gets tiring for new people trying to wade through all the threads here…. Sorry, but I’ve heard others say that too. 

Anyway -
It sounds like the shards were real, and plentiful, and 3 feet deep.

Then the question is whether they were distributed by the dredge, one of the previous floods, or by washing up from the river.  The latter seems unlikely.

Also, from what I’ve read, they were distributed at different depths - not just in one layer at, say, 3 feet.

Doesn’t that suggest the dredge? On the other hand I’ve read that the dredge spoils weren’t dumped this far up the beach, but are records of that really reliable?

So much conflicting information out there…. That’s why I’m asking what the latest and most reliable info is. :)



« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 11:24:42 PM by PhotonHerder »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6695 on: February 19, 2022, 07:06:00 AM »
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Thanks Bruce and JAG,

I’ve read a couple hundred pages of this forum and maybe 20 of this thread. But things change over time, so it’s hard to know if what I’ve read is the latest info, has been disproven, etc. I thought I knew enough to ask a couple questions that weren’t too dumb… (I hope…)

Also there’s a lot of bickering here, which gets tiring for new people trying to wade through all the threads here…. Sorry, but I’ve heard others say that too. 

Anyway -
It sounds like the shards were real, and plentiful, and 3 feet deep.

Then the question is whether they were distributed by the dredge, one of the previous floods, or by washing up from the river.  The latter seems unlikely.

Also, from what I’ve read, they were distributed at different depths - not just in one layer at, say, 3 feet.

Doesn’t that suggest the dredge? On the other hand I’ve read that the dredge spoils weren’t dumped this far up the beach, but are records of that really reliable?

So much conflicting information out there…. That’s why I’m asking what the latest and most reliable info is. :)

The bickering is just the way of people to a certain degree.  Folks get passionate, have strong opinions and the debate gets a little heated.  Also, some of the people and players have been at this for 10 to 20 years or so, so maybe it's like the family bickering at the Thanksgiving dinner table--that can get just as heated lol ! But I am glad that there is forum or place like this to satisfy my unexplainable desire to know what happened to Cooper--I guess it's the thrill of the hunt and the unique nature of this event.  But anyway, I have found that if you treat and address people with respect, there's no problem....and if there is, water off a ducks back. 

Back to the shards, you hit on all of the open questions.  For me, I think the key is whether the shards are from the 3 "bundolas" (~$5800 that Brian Ingram found) or if they are from different bills from the remaining ~$194K?  To know that, a shard with a serial number would need to be somewhere in evidence, I don't know that there is such a shard.  If they are from the ~$194k, it opens up or lends more credence to more theories such as the dredge.

So, to shard or not to shard--that is the question!  ;D

I hope Bruce doesn't mind me linking the following video he made, it's all about the Tena Bar find and I believe discusses the shards as well.  It's about 5 years old but I believe still a good overview as I do not believe much has changed:



But very cool that Bruce is going to get a chance to interview Larry Carr--maybe he will ask him about the shards ! 



 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6696 on: February 19, 2022, 12:23:34 PM »
The bickering is at an end. We can disagree without being disagreeable - myself included. The hope is the future of this forum is informative, constructive, and collaborative.

Posts that do not meet this new standard will be edited or deleted. Users who do not meet this new standard will be suspended or banned.

That said, please ask questions! There are those here who have researched the case for over a decade or even longer. Learn about the case from them before drawing conclusions. No one knows all the answers, but asking questions is the only way to spur discussion and invigorate the case.

“Completely unhinged”
 
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Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6697 on: February 19, 2022, 12:53:44 PM »
Thanks Chaucer

On the Citizen Sleuths website, it says that the money could not have come from the dredge, because the money find was too far north of where the spoils were dumped on the beach.

Is this still the current thinking? 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6698 on: February 19, 2022, 01:04:36 PM »
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Thanks Chaucer

On the Citizen Sleuths website, it says that the money could not have come from the dredge, because the money find was too far north of where the spoils were dumped on the beach.

Is this still the current thinking?
Depends on who you ask. Eric Ulis has a different location for the money find than Tom Kaye does. Not sure if they ever came to a mutual conclusion about that. I also have some evidence that the money find location was within the dredge spoils dump. I'll post it here in a bit.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6699 on: February 19, 2022, 01:53:26 PM »
Some years back I uncovered video surrounding the dig. the media was on the beach during the process. it shows them digging and finding pieces at different levels. some believe they contaminated the scene with pieces getting on the bottoms of shoes,  I don't believe this to be true.

I don't really buy into that theory. the first layers dug up would be quickly covered up as they dug deeper.the other problem is the amount of sand spread from the spoils left on the beach. according to Tom Kaye and the Fazio's the sand wasn't spread very far, not even close to where the money was found but Palmer found a dredge layer up to 3 feet deep. that's a lot of sand coming from a long distance to the northern spoil. Fazio claims 50 yards spread north and south?

Much like others I followed the area where Tom Kaye thought the money find was located but after looking into the actual location based on helicopter video and still shots I came to the conclusion that the location Tom had was too far south from the actual location. this was as far back as 2015.

If the diatoms tell the right story the dredge can be ruled out.

Eric is correct on the location and believe my evidence told him the same...

The money location is nowhere near the spoils..
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 02:02:08 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6700 on: February 19, 2022, 02:45:20 PM »
Georger,

Do you think the money was part of the dredge spoils taken from the river bottom? Or was the money already on the beach and simply came in contact with the dredge spoils after they were deposited?
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Offline PhotonHerder

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6701 on: February 19, 2022, 02:49:21 PM »
Thanks

Ok, so Tom Kaye changed his mind? He should update that website…

Then the three bundles could have either come from the dredge, or the spoils could have been deposited on top of the bundles (or pushed over them by the bulldozer)?  Is that right? 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 02:51:10 PM by PhotonHerder »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6702 on: February 19, 2022, 03:29:26 PM »
These are two photographs taken in September, 1974. They come directly from the US Army Corps of Engineers. They show the area of the Columbia River known as "Willow Bar" which includes Tena Bar. There is a dredge deposit area known as "96.6". This number also coincides with the river mile.

The 96.6 dredge deposit area also appears to include the Tena Bar money find spot which I indicated on one of the pictures.

If this picture is accurate, then it would seem to show that dredge spoils were, in fact, deposited on top of the money find spot in 1974.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6703 on: February 19, 2022, 03:47:53 PM »
The photo is not zoomed in enough to  show what you are trying to prove..a map is available showing where the spoils are located and not close to the money find..it's very simple to see.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6704 on: February 19, 2022, 03:49:56 PM »
I have the same map which is a large file taken from Vancouver website.