Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1233914 times)

Robert99 · « **Reply #6495 on:** September 11, 2021, 04:03:25 PM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

Chaucer, instead of charging you with plagiarism, as I probably should, I will just congratulate you. It is increasingly apparent that you have now read my posts, which started in 2010, on what is now called the Western Flight Path. Incidentally, EU was gracious enough to ask for permission and it was granted.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6496 on:** September 11, 2021, 04:06:52 PM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

Chaucer, instead of charging you with plagiarism, as I probably should, I will just congratulate you. It is increasingly apparent that you have now read my posts, which started in 2010, on what is now called the Western Flight Path. Incidentally, EU was gracious enough to ask for permission and it was granted.

LOL

OK, man, but to be clear, I believe quite strongly that the V-23 flight path is accurate and that Cooper ended up somewhere between the two bridges section of the river.

If anything, you should thank me. You can now maintain your theory while abandoning the weakly supported WFP.

Let’s be allies!

georger · « **Reply #6497 on:** September 11, 2021, 04:25:19 PM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

What flood waters - when ?

This whole case has always been a forensic case. In everything from prints to dna to the money. For some inexplicable reason the case was compromised early with idiotic extraneous false info starting with the FAA psychiatrists' speculative prediction to the tagging of a local skydiver (Ted Mayfield) as being Cooper! That speculative nonsense was compounded by poor evidence collection at Reno with evidence even lost! Tom's work attempts to cut through the fog of this case.

Chaucer · « **Reply #6498 on:** September 11, 2021, 04:32:24 PM »

I would suggest that it would be the flooding of 1972, but that’s only because it was historic flooding and it was close to the date of the crime. In a larger sense, you’re right, we don’t know which flood was responsible.

Robert99 · « **Reply #6499 on:** September 11, 2021, 04:35:41 PM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

What flood waters - when ?

This whole case has always been a forensic case. In everything from prints to dna to the money. For some inexplicable reason the case was compromised early with idiotic extraneous false info starting with the FAA psychiatrists' speculative prediction to the tagging of a local skydiver (Ted Mayfield) as being Cooper! That speculative nonsense was compounded by poor evidence collection at Reno with evidence even lost! Tom's work attempts to cut through the fog of this case.

Georger, to clear up one point, can you categorically state that the diatoms had to come from the river water? That is, they did not come from rainwater. Sooner or later someone will probably start trying to claim rainwater as the source so let us nip this nonsense in the bud.

I was at Tena Bar in November 2009 and it rained off and on every single day. It was also raining when Cooper jumped.

snowmman · « **Reply #6500 on:** September 11, 2021, 08:54:17 PM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

Chaucer, instead of charging you with plagiarism, as I probably should, I will just congratulate you. It is increasingly apparent that you have now read my posts, which started in 2010, on what is now called the Western Flight Path. Incidentally, EU was gracious enough to ask for permission and it was granted.

why is everyone all worked up about 'permission'
on dropzone.com Flyjack has informed the world about the injustices around my recent dump of serials and what I wrote.

"The Cooper Vortex" should be renamed "The Cooper Uptight Anal-Retentive Consortium"

it's fascinating to guess at the people behind all the pseudonyms, and their particular damage
(I'm speaking about myself, included!)

Chaucer · « **Reply #6501 on:** September 11, 2021, 08:58:34 PM »

Flyjack apparently keeps all of his “research” to himself as do many others. It’s “proprietary” apparently.

I’m of the opposite mentality. We’re all in this together. That’s why I shared my interview as soon as possible.

One of the reasons I think this case will never be solved. Too many people see it as a cash cow rather than a serious endeavor. They’d rather be wrong and get paid/credit then be right and get nothing.

snowmman · « **Reply #6502 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:24:19 PM »

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Flyjack apparently keeps all of his “research” to himself as do many others. It’s “proprietary” apparently.

I’m of the opposite mentality. We’re all in this together. That’s why I shared my interview as soon as possible.

One of the reasons I think this case will never be solved. Too many people see it as a cash cow rather than a serious endeavor. They’d rather be wrong and get paid/credit then be right and get nothing.

yes there's a long of history of wanting to be "right"
I think it partly comes from the bad history of all the Cooper facts...and how the fbi relayed poor information. Even from Carr. I think people had to get dogmatic to try to get others to see how messed up the information flow was.

Now that there's much better information that anyone can digest...I think part of the "cooper thing" is just exploring what aspects of the story interest any particular person.

Yes, it really rubs me the wrong way, when people try to make it the launching pad for movies etc..blatantly.

I'm fine with Bruce's approach, he's kind of low key, but he's added value by collating a lot of info.

Someone tried to use the "for-instance" of "what if I copied Bruce's book and etc etc" ...
I wouldn't do that because it falls on the side of what I would say is "not a good thing"
Partly because of Bruce's situation, partly because it represents multi-year work/time.
And partly because I like Bruce.

Sometimes it seems like people really wig out when they don't get the attention they think they deserve.

But there's no one to give them attention! There's nothing. but random posts in the internet webs.

The idea that there's an end goal, is the biggest delusion of the Vortex. That belief is what sucks people in.

Telling stories is really the only end goal that's possible.

snowmman · « **Reply #6503 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:27:17 PM »

as a fer-instance of my thinking..

I was recently looking back to the first time I encountered georger.
I have never met him in person.

But I look back at our first posts on websleuths.com in 2008 about cooper, and I can't help thinking
"sure georger has been a little nutty over the years, but after thousands of posts, I think georger gets to be georger, and I like reading anything he says"

So cheers to you, georger. I even remember when you posted to some google groups forum, talking (sarcastically) about how sluggo had solved the case!

Chaucer · « **Reply #6504 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:35:37 PM »

I’m very active in the online Zodiac Killer community. I can say that I don’t find the same vitriol and selfishness that I find in the Cooper Vortex. Not exactly sure why that is, but it’s true.

snowmman · « **Reply #6505 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:49:58 PM »

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I’m very active in the online Zodiac Killer community. I can say that I don’t find the same vitriol and selfishness that I find in the Cooper Vortex. Not exactly sure why that is, but it’s true.

well there's a long history of the skydivers making fun of cooper nuts, but at the same time thinking of it a little as a story for their community.

I think people find the story appealling for a variety of reasons. I think the suspects people latch on to, sometimes reflect a little bias of the person.

If you're talking about a murderer, I think there's a little more personal distance from the story and the possible suspects.

With cooper, there's a lot of point of views about "what's possible". Against a backdrop of FBI saying cooper was incompetent.

I think people sometimes feel like points-of-view challenge their philosophies of life, or life experiences. There's lots of rooms for experts in certain areas to look at the discourse and think "You guys are clueless"

How many people have experience with murder?
I talked to an old guy in my driveway (old house), once, him complaining about his divorce..This was a "christian" couple. I tried to tell him to forget about the money. He complained about how his dream house was everything to him, and he couldn't lose it.
Fast forward 2-3 years, and he murders the wife and her lawyer in public in a restaurant, retreats to his house and kills himself with police surrounding the house.

I already mentioned the story of another person who apparently murdered someone. I lent him my vw at one time to get around a fixit ticket. I remember arguing with him at a party for some reason, and a drunken threat to race each other downhill in our respective vws.

Let's see and then there's John who my childhood friend who stuck a gun in his mouth with police knocking at the door.

So geez, if we're talking about crazy-ass personalities who might kill people, I guess I'd have an opinion! Not so many people might feel like they have first-hand opinions on what kind of people murder.

georger · « **Reply #6506 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:52:16 PM »

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as a fer-instance of my thinking..

I was recently looking back to the first time I encountered georger.
I have never met him in person.

But I look back at our first posts on websleuths.com in 2008 about cooper, and I can't help thinking
"sure georger has been a little nutty over the years, but after thousands of posts, I think georger gets to be georger, and I like reading anything he says"

So cheers to you, georger. I even remember when you posted to some google groups forum, talking (sarcastically) about how sluggo had solved the case!

Thank you and the compliment is returned - with respect.

snowmman · « **Reply #6507 on:** September 11, 2021, 11:53:49 PM »

I guess I've always liked exploring personalities for Cooper.

I will admit straight-up, when I found out Sheridan had worked at the Bubbleator at the Seattle World's Fair, I thought
"Of course, it all makes sense"

So you can see my twisted biases.

georger · « **Reply #6508 on:** September 12, 2021, 12:05:08 AM »

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Quote
if the money didn't get that wet that night, then what had to happen in the next couple months, so that the money was preserved as discovered in 1980?
I would hypothesize that the money remained packed inside the money bag on the ground over the winter months. Then the flood waters transported the money bag to Tena Bar where the money spilled out and was fully exposed to the river water before being buried.

Quote
EDIT: another interpretation is that the diatom experiments aren't as strong an indicator as presented.
This is also possible, but I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment. I have to accept Tom’s research until other data is presented that contradicts it.

What flood waters - when ?

This whole case has always been a forensic case. In everything from prints to dna to the money. For some inexplicable reason the case was compromised early with idiotic extraneous false info starting with the FAA psychiatrists' speculative prediction to the tagging of a local skydiver (Ted Mayfield) as being Cooper! That speculative nonsense was compounded by poor evidence collection at Reno with evidence even lost! Tom's work attempts to cut through the fog of this case.

Georger, to clear up one point, can you categorically state that the diatoms had to come from the river water? That is, they did not come from rainwater. Sooner or later someone will probably start trying to claim rainwater as the source so let us nip this nonsense in the bud.

I was at Tena Bar in November 2009 and it rained off and on every single day. It was also raining when Cooper jumped.

Rain water, basement flood water, pond water, back yard swimming pool water . . . as long as the water contains a-formosa and the other 'toms TK found .... Im game to discuss it all! All are welcome. Dont forget there are two other lab reports: one from Tom and one from the FBI (actually 2 from the FBI). Short version is all reports document rounded Columbia type river water sand in the money. And NO other sand types in the money. Thats conclusive.

In addition Tom spent a lot of time looking for any sand or elemental types consistent with the Washougal River vs Columbia; that included silver, gold, etc. The Washougal flows through a metamorphic range - the Columbia from Portland to Tena Bar and beyond flows through a Sedimentary range. Tom found nothing that could connect with the money ever having been in the Washougal river basin. On the other hand the money shouts 'Columbia river water, diatoms, and sand/elemental types. All of that adds up to pretty strong evidence...

To clarify things even further another lab report looked at Columbia sand types, and documented 'round' river water sand vs. 'sharp' sand! The Fazios keep a pile of sharp sand used exclusively in construction work vs round sand. No 'sharp sand' was found in the money. I shook my head and smiled when I read that report - it indicates some sharp person in the FBI was aware of the difference btwn sharp vs round sand, and actually took the time to check it out! That impressed me. I was surprised to read that report, and pleased. Good lab work can make or break a case.

georger · « **Reply #6509 on:** September 12, 2021, 12:40:38 AM »

There is a claim being made over at DZ, if I understand what the guy is saying:

"The dredging was continuous until October 1974.
So, the TBAR spot was hit (continuously) with dredge material between NORJAK and Oct 1974.
Everyone was focussed on the 1974 dredge spoils South of the money spot. There was dredging before that. Game changer."

His proof is a clipping unsourced that reads:

"Today a spokesman for the Army Engineers said they were working closely with the FBI, checking out that lead. The sand sucked up from the bottom of the river and spewed onto the beach could have contained some or all of the long-sought money. While the dredging is continuous, the last time sand was deposited in that spot was in October 1974." (see attached. No source is given by the poster)

All I have is:

FBI report: JACK BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief , Waterways Maintenance Branch, Navigation Division, U.S. Army Engineer District, 319 S.W. Pine, telephone 221—6983, after a review of his records, advised that the only dredging operation in the vicinity of the Fazio Brothers’ Pan between November 24, 1971 and the present, was from August 6 1974 through September 18, 1974. Spreading of the spoils by the Fazios followed after several weeks to allow the spoils to settle and stabilize: waited abt 2-3 weeks according to Al Fazio… finished with grading in October.

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1233914 times)

Robert99

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Chaucer

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Chaucer

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Chaucer

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

Chaucer

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tena Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tena Bar Money Find