Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 615437 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6345 on: August 18, 2021, 10:00:16 PM »
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okay.
the fbi memo is 34 pages of serials. 33 pages of 600 serials. 1 page of 98 serials. front page from Hoover, last page of fbi offices and phone numbers.

tosaw may have chopped it up differently.

I guess I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.
You don't have a full list, and the list you have is of unknown accuracy.

I think you're just agreeing it's a lot of work.
Me, I'm just bragging before I'm done.
calling the eight-ball pocket so to speak.
I will have the best list, and I'll make it accessible on Google Drive for all.

The only list I have is the list from the Tosaw book I bought.  I counted and it is 2 short of 10,000.  I've been under the assumption that this is the only list out there and the list from the papers is from the book.  I'll check back later and see what you've found.  It's hard to keep track of all the posts across platforms.  It sounds like the FBI list and the list in the papers may not be the same??  Or that list is wrong?  Or that the FBI may not even know for sure of the serial numbers they gave Cooper, or the exact serial numbers of the $6000 or so that was found on Tina Bar.

It would have been a tragedy if someone found a Cooper $20 and went to the list and it was not on there.

Good luck with everything.  I still think some of the money went into circulation.  I certainly don't think it is still sitting in the woods, or is at the bottom of the river or the ocean.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6346 on: August 18, 2021, 10:10:27 PM »
re: money in circulation

one thing I've noticed, is that people put bills up for sale on ebay without listing serial numbers.

A longer term thing would be collecting images of $20 bills from the web, and running thru a tuned ocr program to extract serial numbers from the images. That's a bit more daunting.

But I do have a thing that runs serials thru google to see what I hit. Mostly hit the known ha auctions and dropzone posts and dbcooperforum posts.

interestingly though, I can keep running the 9998 searches every month or so. no sweat
(I use a thing called "googler" to automate searches, rather than using a browser)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6347 on: August 18, 2021, 10:38:49 PM »
another that looks to me like a fbi typo


L00 832 10C* 69
Should be  who knows what? 0-9 is legal there, not C
maybe
L00 832 100* 69

it really seems to me like a typo, not a poorly printed 0 ?? The other typo was a C also. That was more obviously a typo, because if it as 0, it would have meant consecutive non-star serials which is unlikely (I should try to calculate that probably given the number of bills per series year, assuming bank had random distribution mostly from L San Francisco Reserve...but it's a low probability, I think.)

middle serial in the screenshot.
I'm going to use 0. here's the full location info (page/row/group)
L00832100* 1969  167 15 C

 EDIT: I checked check six. He used 0.



« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 10:40:34 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6348 on: August 18, 2021, 11:29:11 PM »
TK vs FBI/Ingrams - band analysis:

TK band experiments did not produce bands in the same condition as the bands the Ingrams found. TK bands 234 days max exposure. Ingram bands possible 8 years exposure (under sand ?)

The Ingram bands were in a more degraded state than any bands TK produced.

The Ingram bands were NOT holding anything together. The bands were not capable of holding anything together. The FBI description conveys this – the TK version does not!

Harold Ingram's brother took on the job of picking off band pieces back at the apartment (FBI document). Pat Ingram described the brother-in-law as having to ‘pick off’ stuck pieces of bands, stuck to the bills. In several cases this picking off of stuck band pieces, brought pieces of the money with it, so the process was stopped because it was destructive.

If pieces of bands were actually stuck to the bill fibers this may indicate the bands at some point had entered a gooey stage (melt transition phase prior to crystallization) but in order for that to happen the bands must be at 68*F (20C) or hotter. If true, this offers the possibility that at some time during the bands history the money was in a warm-hot environment (under sand on a beach?) for long enough to allow the bands to enter a gooey stage. Bands that are cold cannot enter the melt transition gooey phase.

Very likely the Ingram bands had crystallized at their end-stage – which accounts for the band behavior the Ingrams describe, ie ‘crumbled and fell away upon being handled - some band pieces stuck to the money.’ TK's version is: “crumbled when touched “ but fails to follow this clue to its logical end namely that the bands were in a decomposed crystalline state. The Ingram said: crumbled when touched and turned into dust.

TK 234 day old bands: these bands still look somewhat pliable after 234 days ?.

*Note. Tom used three environments: under sand, in river water, and a control sample left in a desk drawer.
*Transcript: (a) 'The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling.' (b) 'they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off ...' 


« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 12:14:52 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6349 on: August 19, 2021, 12:59:23 AM »
good summary of info, georger.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6350 on: August 19, 2021, 01:14:12 AM »
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good summary of info, georger.

could be important - been mulling this over for a long time - if it could ever be proved the money was in two distinct places during its history (cold and warm) that would change the whole money narrative. One can only follow the evidence... 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6351 on: August 19, 2021, 01:28:46 AM »
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good summary of info, georger.

could be important - been mulling this over for a long time - if it could ever be proved the money was in two distinct places during its history (cold and warm) that would change the whole money narrative. One can only follow the evidence...

How cold and how warm?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6352 on: August 19, 2021, 02:09:39 AM »
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good summary of info, georger.

could be important - been mulling this over for a long time - if it could ever be proved the money was in two distinct places during its history (cold and warm) that would change the whole money narrative. One can only follow the evidence...

How cold and how warm?

also: it seemed like georger was suggesting that the warm happened before the cold.
you could imagine a cold then hot sequence (water than hot on beach)

but georger: are you pondering a hot then cold sequence (maybe followed by a hot sequence (beach) that didn't change things because already crystalline?)
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6353 on: August 19, 2021, 04:20:17 AM »
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good summary of info, georger.

could be important - been mulling this over for a long time - if it could ever be proved the money was in two distinct places during its history (cold and warm) that would change the whole money narrative. One can only follow the evidence...

How cold and how warm?

also: it seemed like georger was suggesting that the warm happened before the cold.
you could imagine a cold then hot sequence (water than hot on beach)

but georger: are you pondering a hot then cold sequence (maybe followed by a hot sequence (beach) that didn't change things because already crystalline?)

If bands reach the gooey then crystalline stage, that's it. Once the sulfur bonds come apart that's it. Once crystals form they simply dry out and harden. No reversal possible.

The whole process is temperature and (uv, ozone) exposure driven. Im guessing within the first year? Tom might say first several months? But it could have taken two years. This is all speculation based on the Ingrams description of 'picking off band pieces that were stuck to bills'. If we could examine those band fragments in a lab we would know as fast as we could get a sample under a microscope ... if we had a piece of band stuck to a piece of money fiber that would be decisive. Its asking for a miracle!

The story about the brother-in-law picking off pieces of band is official - part of the FBI official interview of Pat and Harold. 'they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it.' The brother-in-law worked on the money on their kitchen table. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 04:28:32 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6354 on: August 19, 2021, 11:29:28 AM »
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good summary of info, georger.

could be important - been mulling this over for a long time - if it could ever be proved the money was in two distinct places during its history (cold and warm) that would change the whole money narrative. One can only follow the evidence...

How cold and how warm?

also: it seemed like georger was suggesting that the warm happened before the cold.
you could imagine a cold then hot sequence (water than hot on beach)

but georger: are you pondering a hot then cold sequence (maybe followed by a hot sequence (beach) that didn't change things because already crystalline?)

If bands reach the gooey then crystalline stage, that's it. Once the sulfur bonds come apart that's it. Once crystals form they simply dry out and harden. No reversal possible.

The whole process is temperature and (uv, ozone) exposure driven. Im guessing within the first year? Tom might say first several months? But it could have taken two years. This is all speculation based on the Ingrams description of 'picking off band pieces that were stuck to bills'. If we could examine those band fragments in a lab we would know as fast as we could get a sample under a microscope ... if we had a piece of band stuck to a piece of money fiber that would be decisive. Its asking for a miracle!

The story about the brother-in-law picking off pieces of band is official - part of the FBI official interview of Pat and Harold. 'they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it.' The brother-in-law worked on the money on their kitchen table.

Georger, I know you will go ballistic and deny it, but your idea of the hot/cold cycles fits in beautifully with my idea that the money bag and Cooper were not exposed to the river water for a long time after jump. :)
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6355 on: August 19, 2021, 12:15:49 PM »
Found a case where the check six site has an incorrect serial number. Says it matches when it shouldn't.

L19362280A 1969

you can plug it in here, and it will say you have a match
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It's a reasonable error, because  when you look at the serial number, it really looks like 362 in the 2nd group..i.e.
L19 362 280A

But when you look at the context, and know that the list is sorted, you know that it's really a 382 with the top part of the 8 not well printed. Knowing that the fbi list was sorted is critical for context to aid verification.

The correct serial is
L19 382 280A 
or
L19382280A 1969
which check six says is not a match

 

Offline 377

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6356 on: August 19, 2021, 01:02:56 PM »
Great catch Snow. You are cleaning up the data. I love your ideas for automating a match search. It would be HUGE news if an undamaged circulated Cooper twenty were found. Front page news.

377
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6357 on: August 19, 2021, 01:50:14 PM »
I've been reading some collector books on bills.
Fascinating amount of detail.
Engaging the collector community will be interesting once I have a list of star notes.

 


here are all the relevant printings of $20 bill and series year.
The 1934/1950/1963/1969 seems odd, until you see that those were the years that had printing or $20 bills.
none in intervening years.

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Type                         Series Treasurer Secretary Seal
Federal Reserve Note   1934   Julian   Morgenthau   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1934 Hawaii   Julian   Morgenthau   Brown
Federal Reserve Note   1934A   Julian   Morgenthau   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1934A Hawaii   Julian   Morgenthau   Brown
Federal Reserve Note   1934B   Julian   Vinson   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1934C   Julian   Snyder   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1934D   Clark   Snyder   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950   Clark   Snyder   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950A   Priest   Humphrey   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950B   Priest   Anderson   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950C   Smith   Dillon   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950D   Granahan   Dillon   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1950E   Granahan   Fowler   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1963   Granahan   Dillon   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1963A   Granahan   Fowler   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1969   Elston   Kennedy   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1969A   Kabis   Connally   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1969B   Bañuelos   Connally   Green
Federal Reserve Note   1969C   Bañuelos   Shultz   Green

Was thinking about paper. I believe the paper used as not changed since those years.

They did some experimental runs of different paper (like the so-called Natick paper) for $1 bills in 1981
Still reading but I think $20 paper has always been consistent.

U.S. currency is printed on special paper made by Crane Paper Company. Unlike traditional paper made of wood pulp, the paper used for currency is made of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen.

Idea: I wonder if the cotton/linen mixture decays in a non-uniform manner. Maybe interesting in terms of understanding the holes in the cooper money found.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 01:59:21 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6358 on: August 19, 2021, 01:53:53 PM »
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Great catch Snow. You are cleaning up the data. I love your ideas for automating a match search. It would be HUGE news if an undamaged circulated Cooper twenty were found. Front page news.

377

I think engaging the collector community on cooper star notes might be useful.
They collect star notes.
The ratio of cooper star notes to regular notes is higher than the ratio of star/regular printed.
It depends on the fed reserve (the letter start). I think the ratio of cooper star notes, say from San Francisco L reserve, for 63 and 69A series, is higher than you would think if it was just matching the star/regular print run ratio (data is available from collector sites/books)

The collectors have all this data, which is amazing. So we can do probability analysis for predicting the likelihood of finding one...i.e. size the needle and size the haystack.

I think it's possible to find a star note that was printed on the same sheet as a Cooper note. That would be interesting. Same paper/Same ink. Same age. Good for experiments
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 01:58:41 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6359 on: August 19, 2021, 02:06:20 PM »
Why not more mold?

Bruce, maybe you could interview Douglas Cobb? His bio is at the bottom. His thoughts on mold seem interesting. He's a real paper/currency forensic scientist. (unlike some who just play one in tv documentaries :) )

Doug has a phone number at the top left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I think Doug could explain the holes in the Cooper money and maybe explain whether the circular hole deterioration, and ink fading can give us any clues.

... Douglas Cobb, a paper scientist and forensic paper examiner, to tell us just how long cash might last


“Money is made from 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen fibers — often called ragstock or rag paper — while most paper is made from cellulose fibers from trees,” Cobb explains, adding that those critters in the ground would make a pretty hearty meal out of that, so you might find the cash reduced to nothing with 10 or even five years.

If you put it in a suitcase, it’ll last much longer. How long depends upon what the case is made from — the more waterproof, the better. “Once money gets wet or moist, it will start to mold within as little as 200 days,” Cobb says. So, if you pick the right suitcase that’s fairly guarded from moisture, Cobb says it could last “a few decades.”

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Doug Cobb is a Paper Scientist and Document Security Expert with over 28 years of professional experience. He applies his expertise towards the resolution of conflicts involving disputed documents, including wills, trusts, checks, contracts, deeds, mortgage documents, prenuptial agreements, voter registration forms, and ballot cards. He specializes in the investigation and analysis of forged or altered documents, specifically where there is suspicion that sections were inserted, modified, or copied/pasted from other sources.

Throughout his career, Doug has worked in over 50 paper mills and has developed unique paper solutions for companies such as Hewlett Packard, Xerox, Canon, McDonald’s, and Deluxe Check. He has developed new science-based methodologies to eliminate document fraud and improve document security, including processes to determine if questioned documents come from the same source or paper. His deep industry experience coupled with the chemistry, biotechnology, and material science components of his educational background inform Doug’s scientific approach to forensic paper analysis.

Doug earned his Bachelor of Science degree in Forest Products, with a specialization in Paper Science and Engineering from the University of Minnesota. He is a frequent invited speaker at professional organizations for document examiners and handwriting experts; including training sessions on topics of paper and print characteristics, and legal document security. Doug has developed two patent-pending technologies for advancements in forensic document examination and legal document security.

Doug is an active member of SAFE,  the Scientific Association of Forensic Examiners and ACFE, the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 02:08:16 PM by snowmman »