Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1211028 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5880 on: March 10, 2021, 05:33:54 PM »
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What’s Flyjack’s evidence of his packet theory? Seems to fly in the face (pardon the pun) of most documented evidence, no?

FJ's reply today is:

 FLYJACK #63333

I have explained Carr's money "bundle" error many times...

Georger just ignores it..

The only difference is whether there were 2 bands holding the bundle or a single band..  both fan out.. the single fans out more.
Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK "

That's it!  Carr's money "bundle" error.  The drama continues by design.   
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 05:36:50 PM by georger »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5881 on: March 10, 2021, 05:41:48 PM »
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What’s Flyjack’s evidence of his packet theory? Seems to fly in the face (pardon the pun) of most documented evidence, no?

FJ's reply today is:

 FLYJACK #63333

I have explained Carr's money "bundle" error many times...

Georger just ignores it..

The only difference is whether there were 2 bands holding the bundle or a single band..  both fan out.. the single fans out more.
Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK "

That's it!  Carr's money "bundle" error.  The drama continues by design.

Perhaps some packets being bound by one rubberband and others being bound by two rubberbands is what was meant by the reference of different-sized packets. If this were accurate it may explain the FBI reference which would have been misunderstood by the agent.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5882 on: March 10, 2021, 05:42:29 PM »
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I'll speak for myself thank you very much.

There is nothing that I have read that contradicts the belief that Cooper was provided packets of cash--each packet contained 100 $20 bills--bound by a rubberband with no identify bank information. Simple as that.

I do not believe that any number of these packets were clumped together to form what I refer to as a brick. That said, the sole reference concerning varied sizing of packets, or whatever, to make them appear hastily collected for the benefit of DBC makes no sense and strikes me as an error.

Again, for those with a stick up their ass, mistakes exist all over the place in these files. So if someone wants to hang their hat on some outlier description of something, well then have at it and enjoy the ride.

So your "packet" and "Carr's bundle" are basically the same.  Why not just say so ?

The rest of your words are undeipherabull.   Why all the drama?

Ok. Do you believe Carr interviewed the bank employee that prepared the money for Cooper?  Does any of this even matter to you or are you a freelance myth maker who really doesn't give a shit. ?

 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5883 on: March 10, 2021, 05:46:07 PM »
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I'll speak for myself thank you very much.

There is nothing that I have read that contradicts the belief that Cooper was provided packets of cash--each packet contained 100 $20 bills--bound by a rubberband with no identify bank information. Simple as that.

I do not believe that any number of these packets were clumped together to form what I refer to as a brick. That said, the sole reference concerning varied sizing of packets, or whatever, to make them appear hastily collected for the benefit of DBC makes no sense and strikes me as an error.

Again, for those with a stick up their ass, mistakes exist all over the place in these files. So if someone wants to hang their hat on some outlier description of something, well then have at it and enjoy the ride.

So your "packet" and "Carr's bundle" are basically the same.  Why not just say so ?

The rest of your words are undeipherabull.   Why all the drama?

Ok. Do you believe Carr interviewed the bank employee that prepared the money for Cooper?  Does any of this even matter to you or are you a freelance myth maker who really doesn't give a shit. ?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I call them packets because that's what they are. I have never once challenged Carr or anyone else on use of the term "packet" versus "bundle." Carr can call them whatever he wants to call them. I have no problem with that.

GEORGER, what the F is your deal?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5884 on: March 10, 2021, 05:46:22 PM »
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What’s Flyjack’s evidence of his packet theory? Seems to fly in the face (pardon the pun) of most documented evidence, no?

FJ's reply today is:

 FLYJACK #63333

I have explained Carr's money "bundle" error many times...

Georger just ignores it..

The only difference is whether there were 2 bands holding the bundle or a single band..  both fan out.. the single fans out more.
Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK "

That's it!  Carr's money "bundle" error.  The drama continues by design.

Perhaps some packets being bound by one rubberband and others being bound by two rubberbands is what was meant by the reference of different-sized packets. If this were accurate it may explain the FBI reference which would have been misunderstood by the agent.

The agent? wHAT AGENT? Are you referring to Carr ?   

Do you see that FJ's packaging is different from Carr/Kaye's, which has implication for "fanning out" - diatoms?  Its like the difference between a Chevy and a Mac Truck?
For one, one weighs more than the other.

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5885 on: March 10, 2021, 05:49:28 PM »
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I'll speak for myself thank you very much.

There is nothing that I have read that contradicts the belief that Cooper was provided packets of cash--each packet contained 100 $20 bills--bound by a rubberband with no identify bank information. Simple as that.

I do not believe that any number of these packets were clumped together to form what I refer to as a brick. That said, the sole reference concerning varied sizing of packets, or whatever, to make them appear hastily collected for the benefit of DBC makes no sense and strikes me as an error.

Again, for those with a stick up their ass, mistakes exist all over the place in these files. So if someone wants to hang their hat on some outlier description of something, well then have at it and enjoy the ride.

So your "packet" and "Carr's bundle" are basically the same.  Why not just say so ?

The rest of your words are undeipherabull.   Why all the drama?

Ok. Do you believe Carr interviewed the bank employee that prepared the money for Cooper?  Does any of this even matter to you or are you a freelance myth maker who really doesn't give a shit. ?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I call them packets because that's what they are. I have never once challenged Carr or anyone else on use of the term "packet" versus "bundle." Carr can call them whatever he wants to call them. I have no problem with that.

GEORGER, what the F is your deal?

I call them packets because that's what they are.

So, you use the word packet because you chose that word over 'cracker jack'.  Your word packet has no meaning!

Whjat is my deal you ask?  My "deal" is: words have meanings. Did they not teach you that in school?     
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5886 on: March 10, 2021, 05:49:47 PM »
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What’s Flyjack’s evidence of his packet theory? Seems to fly in the face (pardon the pun) of most documented evidence, no?

FJ's reply today is:

 FLYJACK #63333

I have explained Carr's money "bundle" error many times...

Georger just ignores it..

The only difference is whether there were 2 bands holding the bundle or a single band..  both fan out.. the single fans out more.
Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK "

That's it!  Carr's money "bundle" error.  The drama continues by design.

Perhaps some packets being bound by one rubberband and others being bound by two rubberbands is what was meant by the reference of different-sized packets. If this were accurate it may explain the FBI reference which would have been misunderstood by the agent.

The agent? wHAT AGENT? Are you referring to Carr ?   

Do you see that FJ's packaging is different from Carr/Kaye's, which has implication for "fanning out" - diatoms?  Its like the difference between a Chevy and a Mac Truck?
For one, one weighs more than the other.

If I'm not mistaken, the FBI files reference the packets being sized differently to appear hastily gathered.

Regarding the packing and diatoms: Who gives a shit? As long as the packets end up submerged in the river they're going to gather diatoms.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5887 on: March 10, 2021, 05:52:11 PM »
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What’s Flyjack’s evidence of his packet theory? Seems to fly in the face (pardon the pun) of most documented evidence, no?

FJ's reply today is:

 FLYJACK #63333

I have explained Carr's money "bundle" error many times...

Georger just ignores it..

The only difference is whether there were 2 bands holding the bundle or a single band..  both fan out.. the single fans out more.
Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK "

That's it!  Carr's money "bundle" error.  The drama continues by design.

Perhaps some packets being bound by one rubberband and others being bound by two rubberbands is what was meant by the reference of different-sized packets. If this were accurate it may explain the FBI reference which would have been misunderstood by the agent.

The agent? wHAT AGENT? Are you referring to Carr ?   

Do you see that FJ's packaging is different from Carr/Kaye's, which has implication for "fanning out" - diatoms?  Its like the difference between a Chevy and a Mac Truck?
For one, one weighs more than the other.

If I'm not mistaken, the FBI files reference the packets being sized differently to appear hastily gathered.

Regarding the packing and diatoms: Who gives a shit? As long as the packets end up submerged in the river they're going to gather diatoms.

Do you believe Carr interviewed the bank employee who prepared the money for delivery to Cooper?  Does it even matter to you?

Who gives a shit?  According to Kaye diatoms give a shit!
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5888 on: March 10, 2021, 05:52:39 PM »
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I call them packets because that's what they are.

So, you use the word packet because you chose that word over 'cracker jack'.  Your word packet has no meaning!

Whjat is my deal you ask?  My "deal" is: words have meanings. Did they not teach you that in school?   

In this case "packet" or "bundle" or "cracker jack" can be applied however you want to apply them. Each packet had 100 bound bills. Period.

Now the word "dumbass" has only one meaning and applies to only one person here.

Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5889 on: March 10, 2021, 05:56:00 PM »
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I call them packets because that's what they are.

So, you use the word packet because you chose that word over 'cracker jack'.  Your word packet has no meaning!

Whjat is my deal you ask?  My "deal" is: words have meanings. Did they not teach you that in school?   

In this case "packet" or "bundle" or "cracker jack" can be applied however you want to apply them. Each packet had 100 bound bills. Period.

Now the word "dumbass" has only one meaning and applies to only one person here.

Conversation if thats what it was, is over.  Its really too bad that someone who aspires to the position you claim (and want!) cannot even conduct a simple conversation with people. I think you have run into that issue before with others. Good luck.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 05:56:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5890 on: March 10, 2021, 06:12:42 PM »
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I call them packets because that's what they are.

So, you use the word packet because you chose that word over 'cracker jack'.  Your word packet has no meaning!

Whjat is my deal you ask?  My "deal" is: words have meanings. Did they not teach you that in school?   

In this case "packet" or "bundle" or "cracker jack" can be applied however you want to apply them. Each packet had 100 bound bills. Period.

Now the word "dumbass" has only one meaning and applies to only one person here.

Conversation if thats what it was, is over.  Its really too bad that someone who aspires to the position you claim (and want!) cannot even conduct a simple conversation with people. I think you have run into that issue before with others. Good luck.

You see GEORGER, you're what's called a cyber bully.

And I do not have to tolerate bullshit from a cyber bully whether I'm running for Congress or not.

I don't like your type. You and your snide comments and laughing emoji. You're just a blowhard. Simply put, you're just F'ing with the wrong guy.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5891 on: March 10, 2021, 06:18:41 PM »
Work the problem out....stop the name calling and try to use reason when replying to a comment.

This surrounds how the money was packaged and the conversation Carr had with the person who prepared the money.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5892 on: March 10, 2021, 07:48:27 PM »
Quote
As long as the packets end up submerged in the river they're going to gather diatoms.
Not sure this is 100% accurate. According to Tom’s paper, money that does not fan out - in this example money that has been buried - does not accumulate diatoms on the interior of bills. Only along the edges.

Here are the relevant passages:

The slightly rough texture of the bills created micro-voids at the edge of the stack where smaller diatoms like Melosira spp. as well as fragments could enter. Typically within 3–4 mm in from the edge, the void would close up due to the natural variation in texture and often a “tide line” was found where diatoms and fragments would pile up in larger numbers. Beyond the “tide line” the internal area of the stack was void of diatoms

The results demonstrated that the bills would sink after a short period of time and that the bills would fan out in the water. The individual surfaces of virtually all the bills were directly exposed to river water which would allow diatom infiltration.

If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur.

The diatom saturated water experiment showed that penetration is possible but only for the smaller range of diatoms and only a limited distance in from the edge on the order of millimeters. No “tide lines” of diatoms or small sand fragments were found on the Cooper bill. Since we know from the experiment that diatom accumulations were likely to happen on the edges, the lack of aggregations suggests they were destroyed with the severe degradation around the edges of the bundle. The inner degraded edge where the SEM samples were taken from showed no accumulations, suggesting the bills had congealed into a solid lump (consistent with the condition that the bills were found in), preventing any further diatom infiltration.


My point is that the surface of the bills must be exposed to the river water for diatoms to infiltrate. That requires fanning out. If a packet doesn’t fan out, it would reduce the likelihood of diatoms penetrating the interior of the bills. They would only be found along the edge. In other words, it requires more than submersion to accumulate diatoms. It requires exposure of the bill’s surface to the river water during immersion.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 07:52:11 PM by Chaucer »
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5893 on: March 11, 2021, 12:17:53 AM »
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Work the problem out....stop the name calling and try to use reason when replying to a comment.

This surrounds how the money was packaged and the conversation Carr had with the person who prepared the money.

Exactly, the conversation Carr had with the person who prepared the money.

Until that conversation we had no way of comparing what the Ingrams found with the form the bank prepared and sent. It appeared to me the Ingrams' statement was very close to what Carr was reporting the bank employee described to him. There was no controversy over packets vs bundles vs rubber bands vs paper bands! There was no controversy over randomised or not. We already knew that the FBI had examined the order of the bills in the Ingram find and apparently it determined the order was the same as the order of serial numbers given to Cooper. Larry conveyed his results by email to Tom and me.

Several weeks later 'someone' brought up the issue of paper straps to Larry. Larry called the bank employee again and asked specifically about the use of paper straps! The bank employee explained again no paper straps had been used, and why. Larry also called Brian and Mrs Ingram and confirmed they had not seen paper straps or remains of paper straps. I then talked to Mrs. Ingram myself and she confirmed to me they had not seen paper straps or anything which remotely looked like paper straps. Mrs Ingram and I exchanged several phone calls with Mrs Ingram explaining to me what they had found and the particulars. FJ maintains the paper straps dissolved and that is why the Ingrams did not see any paper straps!

The only term Larry has ever used in reference to the form of the money is the word "bundles". Other people have used all kinds of words for the money: packages, parcels, packets, etc . . .  How the money was prepared and its physical "form" is germane to fanning out, as described by Tom Kaye, if for no other reason than the physical form Tom chose and prepared his money in, for testing in the Columbia.   

Flyjack is saying Carr "got it wrong"! That paper straps were involved. And the bills consisted of paper banded "packets", three to a "bundle" wrapped with one or more rubber bands.

"Eric is mostly correct, a banded or strapped group of 100 bills is a packet.. can also be called a flat or a strap. Himmelsbach and the Bank confirm this in the FBI docs. Eric is wrong on two points, the bundles were randomized not the packets and it is not a fact that the packets arrived on TBAR separately. The Bank called them packets.

Cooper was given the money in packets of 100 bills. Those packets were rubber banded into bundles,,,  get it, packets = 100 bills and bundles = a group of packets.

Carr claimed that the Bank guy he talked to said the bundles were made random. There are other references to the bundles being randomized to look hastily prepared.
Here is the problem, Carr also stated that the three bundles were each a random count, he was wrong, he confused the packets of 100 with the bundles of packets. Carr mixed up the terms. The packets were in 100's.

We know Cooper was given the money in packets of 100, those packets rubber banded into bundles of a random number of PACKETS...
So, if the TBAR money arrived as three separate packets they had to be removed from the bundles they were in when given to Cooper prior to landing on TBAR.
Also, the rubber band frags attached to bills were not documented, there is no way to confirm they were only holding packets and not the bundle or a combination.
The FBI claimed the money was from one bundle and in the same order.

Conclusion,,, it is NOT a fact that the 3 TBAR packets arrived separately and it is most likely that the 3 packets arrived rubber banded in a single bundle, as the rubber bands deteriorated the packets loosened and fell apart slightly."


There it is. Neither Tom Kaye or Larry have come back to comment about any of this. We are left to conjecture and debate ... that is a polite way of describing it!

Until someone has something NEW to add I will not post further about this because I dont want to risk being called a Cyberbully. I have not used any 'emoji's either due to EU's complaint about that! Hopefully somebody can get to the bottom of this if only to conclude it is a non-problem Georger only is laboring.     

« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 03:49:56 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5894 on: March 11, 2021, 12:53:05 AM »
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Quote
As long as the packets end up submerged in the river they're going to gather diatoms.
Not sure this is 100% accurate. According to Tom’s paper, money that does not fan out - in this example money that has been buried - does not accumulate diatoms on the interior of bills. Only along the edges.

Here are the relevant passages:

The slightly rough texture of the bills created micro-voids at the edge of the stack where smaller diatoms like Melosira spp. as well as fragments could enter. Typically within 3–4 mm in from the edge, the void would close up due to the natural variation in texture and often a “tide line” was found where diatoms and fragments would pile up in larger numbers. Beyond the “tide line” the internal area of the stack was void of diatoms

The results demonstrated that the bills would sink after a short period of time and that the bills would fan out in the water. The individual surfaces of virtually all the bills were directly exposed to river water which would allow diatom infiltration.

If the previous experiments and investigations rule out diatom infiltration while buried, then the findings suggest that diatoms found their way onto the bills during water immersion. As shown in Fig. 4, a stack of bills once saturated, will fan out in water exposing all surfaces to micro-particles in the water environment. The exposure of the fanned out stack to the river, suggests the simplest way for large, intact but fragile diatoms to be found alone interior to the bill stack. This would have occurred prior to burial and be in the water long enough for fan out to occur.

The diatom saturated water experiment showed that penetration is possible but only for the smaller range of diatoms and only a limited distance in from the edge on the order of millimeters. No “tide lines” of diatoms or small sand fragments were found on the Cooper bill. Since we know from the experiment that diatom accumulations were likely to happen on the edges, the lack of aggregations suggests they were destroyed with the severe degradation around the edges of the bundle. The inner degraded edge where the SEM samples were taken from showed no accumulations, suggesting the bills had congealed into a solid lump (consistent with the condition that the bills were found in), preventing any further diatom infiltration.


My point is that the surface of the bills must be exposed to the river water for diatoms to infiltrate. That requires fanning out. If a packet doesn’t fan out, it would reduce the likelihood of diatoms penetrating the interior of the bills. They would only be found along the edge. In other words, it requires more than submersion to accumulate diatoms. It requires exposure of the bill’s surface to the river water during immersion.

Let me try and get beyond this.    So far as we know, the diatoms on the Cooper bills date from some time Nov 1971 to Feb 1980. Tom reference diatoms he is comparing to Cooper diatoms date from 2010 when he did his Columbia experiment ?  I am wondering if there is an archive that collects and stores diatoms who would have samples going back to 71-1980 ? Maybe those are the diatoms Tom should be using as a reference? Its a thought. Like everything else here it may hit an impossible objection from some spectator.

I would like to know more about what Agencies collect and examine diatoms in the Portland to Lewis River area who do water quality or other tests using diatoms as their baseline? Do these people have samples or data that could be useful to Tom's work?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 03:17:39 AM by georger »