Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 554700 times)

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5685 on: October 17, 2020, 03:02:41 AM »
Dudeman wrote: “ First, I don't think that a spinning, tumbling, out-of-control freefall necessarily results in a no-pull. If Cooper's got the nerve to pull off the hijacking, I'm guessing that he has the presence of mind to pull. One puts the rig on and familiarizes one's self where the ripcord handle is. However out of control one may be, the handle is still in the same spot. I've seen people pull in some pretty f-ed up positions, and they get open.”

Yeah. That was me in 1968 trying to learn stable freefall techniques prior to the age of tandems, windtunnels and AFF jumpmaster assisted freefall. I got into some really awful tumbling spins trying to teach myself how to fall stable. Somehow I always managed to get a clean opening even though I pulled in the middle of total chaos. I think some fatalities result from a panicked tumbling jumper mistakenly pulling on something other than the ripcord (such as harness webbing) and pulling on it desperately all the way to impact.

377


« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 03:03:06 AM by 377 »
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5686 on: November 02, 2020, 06:50:50 AM »
So what do we know about that submarine? Did it have windows?  It would not have to worry as much about pressure like a deep ocean sub.  So I would sure hope they could see out of it?  Because sonar equipment was scarce then I am pretty sure?  And what good would sonar do you?  None.  Was it a real sub or some Laurel and Hardy special? 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5687 on: November 02, 2020, 03:29:49 PM »
The sub sounded legit accordingly to descriptions in Himmelsbach's book: NORJAK - The Investigation of DB Cooper. I highly recommend it.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5688 on: November 02, 2020, 11:34:15 PM »
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So what do we know about that submarine? Did it have windows?  It would not have to worry as much about pressure like a deep ocean sub.  So I would sure hope they could see out of it?  Because sonar equipment was scarce then I am pretty sure?  And what good would sonar do you?  None.  Was it a real sub or some Laurel and Hardy special?

What sub? The salvage company sub that searched Lake Merwin in 1976? That project was financed by Royal Globe Insurance. I could probably give you a list of 302s that cover this ... if you're interested.   
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 01:11:06 AM by georger »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5689 on: November 03, 2020, 05:50:54 AM »
Just wondering if the search of the waters involved here was good enough to really have some idea that he did not sink toe the bottom with the loot and the bombs and chutes?  I say no damn way because some of that stuff would float or show up.  And not like at Tena Bar.  I wonder if the sun had set when me made the jump?  I mean, was it completely nightfall?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5690 on: November 03, 2020, 02:11:18 PM »
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Just wondering if the search of the waters involved here was good enough to really have some idea that he did not sink toe the bottom with the loot and the bombs and chutes?  I say no damn way because some of that stuff would float or show up.  And not like at Tena Bar.  I wonder if the sun had set when me made the jump?  I mean, was it completely nightfall?

Two major searches of the Merwin-Ariel area occurred; one in 71-72 and a re-visit of the area again in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Insurance. This was all based on three pieces of data: (a) the original AF radar flight path map, (b)  crew testimony, primarily pilot Wm Scott, and (c) NWA's FDR tape analysis that the time of the oscillations/bump put Cooper's LZ in the Merwin Lake/Ariel area. Using that analysis a new more detailed search map of the Merwin area was generated with various searches proposed by various people with Royal Globe Insurance now involved.  Flight engineer Anderson issued a caveat: Anderson felt the ATC flight communications timeline was being ignored and had to be considered. Anderson, it appears, was largely ignored. 

All of this follows the FBI NORJAK evaluation Conference held at San Francisco early in 1976.

Searching Lake Merwin proved problematic - see attached. 

This refocus on the Merwin Lake area in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Ins. and the offer of a new Reward for finding Cooper money, ushered in a whole new series of events including several hoaxes, extending to Ariel and the Ariel dam. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 02:17:07 PM by georger »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5691 on: November 03, 2020, 02:19:25 PM »
I would still guess it to be an easier task than searching SF bay for Morris and the Anglin bros approach approximately 8 years earlier?  But that is just a guess based on size, depth, etc.  in those days if they truly believed something was down there they usually dragged the bottom. Current technology is not going to help due to the age of these investigations.  Thanks for the info
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5692 on: November 03, 2020, 03:07:57 PM »
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Just wondering if the search of the waters involved here was good enough to really have some idea that he did not sink toe the bottom with the loot and the bombs and chutes?  I say no damn way because some of that stuff would float or show up.  And not like at Tena Bar.  I wonder if the sun had set when me made the jump?  I mean, was it completely nightfall?

Two major searches of the Merwin-Ariel area occurred; one in 71-72 and a re-visit of the area again in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Insurance. This was all based on three pieces of data: (a) the original AF radar flight path map, (b)  crew testimony, primarily pilot Wm Scott, and (c) NWA's FDR tape analysis that the time of the oscillations/bump put Cooper's LZ in the Merwin Lake/Ariel area. Using that analysis a new more detailed search map of the Merwin area was generated with various searches proposed by various people with Royal Globe Insurance now involved.  Flight engineer Anderson issued a caveat: Anderson felt the ATC flight communications timeline was being ignored and had to be considered. Anderson, it appears, was largely ignored. 

All of this follows the FBI NORJAK evaluation Conference held at San Francisco early in 1976.

Searching Lake Merwin proved problematic - see attached. 

This refocus on the Merwin Lake area in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Ins. and the offer of a new Reward for finding Cooper money, ushered in a whole new series of events including several hoaxes, extending to Ariel and the Ariel dam.

So Anderson thought that the ATC communications were important to determining where Cooper jumped?  He should know since he was the flight engineer on the aircraft.

Unfortunately, for reasons of their own, the FBI/FAA doesn't want those ATC communications to be released.  And there is really no valid reason for not releasing them since they are in the public domain.

Georger, your have continually discounted the importance of the ATC communications.  Is that egg on your face?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5693 on: November 03, 2020, 03:14:10 PM »
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Just wondering if the search of the waters involved here was good enough to really have some idea that he did not sink toe the bottom with the loot and the bombs and chutes?  I say no damn way because some of that stuff would float or show up.  And not like at Tena Bar.  I wonder if the sun had set when me made the jump?  I mean, was it completely nightfall?

Two major searches of the Merwin-Ariel area occurred; one in 71-72 and a re-visit of the area again in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Insurance. This was all based on three pieces of data: (a) the original AF radar flight path map, (b)  crew testimony, primarily pilot Wm Scott, and (c) NWA's FDR tape analysis that the time of the oscillations/bump put Cooper's LZ in the Merwin Lake/Ariel area. Using that analysis a new more detailed search map of the Merwin area was generated with various searches proposed by various people with Royal Globe Insurance now involved.  Flight engineer Anderson issued a caveat: Anderson felt the ATC flight communications timeline was being ignored and had to be considered. Anderson, it appears, was largely ignored. 

All of this follows the FBI NORJAK evaluation Conference held at San Francisco early in 1976.

Searching Lake Merwin proved problematic - see attached. 

This refocus on the Merwin Lake area in 1976 backed by Royal Globe Ins. and the offer of a new Reward for finding Cooper money, ushered in a whole new series of events including several hoaxes, extending to Ariel and the Ariel dam.

So Anderson thought that the ATC communications were important to determining where Cooper jumped?  He should know since he was the flight engineer on the aircraft.

Unfortunately, for reasons of their own, the FBI/FAA doesn't want those ATC communications to be released.  And there is really no valid reason for not releasing them since they are in the public domain.

Georger, your have continually discounted the importance of the ATC communications.  Is that egg on your face?

Utter nonsense. Just follow the bouncing ball . . . ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 04:06:16 PM by georger »
 

Offline Mack

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5694 on: November 08, 2020, 01:20:07 PM »
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Not to mention the fact from a tactical point of view, the instant he puts on a chute (early) in the confined space of that airplane he becomes more vulnerable, physically (tactically). This is a guy making some bold choices ... only to have the FBI stall things and keep the plane on the ground for hours! Something is compelling or managing Cooper's decisions, and its not exactly rational from a tactical defensive point of view! What's he going to do if they rush him and his bomb is not real?

The whole situation is loaded for trouble - what's he doing putting on a chute and screwing around trying to make ANY container for the money!? The knapsack was supposed to be the container! Ooooops. Scratch that part of the plan! From a tactical point of view Cooper has made himself a vulnerable target ... if people outside the plane are aware of what's going on inside that plane.  ;)

Good observations.  Devils advocate: what additional options does Cooper have without wearing the chute?  Unless he has a firearm with him or a knife to threaten the crew with, he's toast if the FBI storms the plane.  Real bomb or not, it's a fail for him if his goal was to escape with the money.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5695 on: November 09, 2020, 05:40:31 AM »
Ill bet he had more things hidden than we will ever know.  He was very smart and he thought this thing through very well.  I still think he has more in his bag to help him after the jump
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5696 on: November 10, 2020, 10:27:49 AM »
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Ill bet he had more things hidden than we will ever know.  He was very smart and he thought this thing through very well.  I still think he has more in his bag to help him after the jump
What evidence do you have that supports these statements?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5697 on: November 10, 2020, 01:10:38 PM »
I do not have the evidence but you cannot counter it either. He was back there fiddling about for at least 20 minutes after ordering Tina to the cockpit right?  So who knows what he was doing?  Perhaps putting on thermal underwear?  I do not buy into this 57 below zero crap either.  It might have been the wind chill for a split second or two when he jumped?  But that would be it. It was not even snowing. It was rain.  It was not upstate NY.  He could have had other things under that fake bomb.  Survival gear? 
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5698 on: November 10, 2020, 02:15:03 PM »
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I do not have the evidence but you cannot counter it either. He was back there fiddling about for at least 20 minutes after ordering Tina to the cockpit right?  So who knows what he was doing?  Perhaps putting on thermal underwear?  I do not buy into this 57 below zero crap either.  It might have been the wind chill for a split second or two when he jumped?  But that would be it. It was not even snowing. It was rain.  It was not upstate NY.  He could have had other things under that fake bomb.  Survival gear?
This the argument from ignorance fallacy. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

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Cooper could have been masturbating in the bathroom. He could have had gummy balls in his brown paper bag. He could have had 7 joints hidden in his briefcase.

Unless there is evidence, it is unknowable
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5699 on: November 10, 2020, 05:21:18 PM »
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I do not have the evidence but you cannot counter it either. He was back there fiddling about for at least 20 minutes after ordering Tina to the cockpit right?  So who knows what he was doing?  Perhaps putting on thermal underwear?  I do not buy into this 57 below zero crap either.  It might have been the wind chill for a split second or two when he jumped?  But that would be it. It was not even snowing. It was rain.  It was not upstate NY.  He could have had other things under that fake bomb.  Survival gear?
First off, let’s deal with known facts as I lived in Portland in 1971 and delivered mail there for 28 years. If Cooper landed in Portland or Vancouver area, there was NO snow or frigid conditions on the ground. You can check the weather reports or take it from my own personal knowledge ! Nov 24, 1971 was as close as you could ever get to being a typical day in Portland. Check it yourself ! There were no heavy rains or high winds !
Now let’s deal with another Known fact. He did carry onboard a bag which wasn’t there after Cooper bailed. So it’s one of the common sense questions to ask is why On God’s earth would he carry a bag onboard if his plan was to hijack an airplane and jump into a dark and damp night ? Although There’s no proof that there was anything useful in that bag BUT it’s fair to ask “ Why did he bring along this bag ?” That’s been one of my big questions and so it’s prudent to think about Why ! Many crimes are solved by dealing with motives, small details that aren’t evidence but it’s interesting nonetheless! We do know that he came up with a knife to cut up the parachute ropes right ? So nobody saw him with a knife so perhaps it was in the bag. I’m a avid and experienced hunter and I’ve never left with out carrying an altimeter and compass. Of course a knife and flashlight was also in my possession. One night I hiked out of the Colorado wilderness until 3 am. All I’m saying is why did he bring along that bag and what was in it. If It was me I’d have a knife,  compass, altimeter, flashlight, wool socks and perhaps a pair of lightweight boots. There was no airport security back in 1971 so I’d be packing a weapon also. I believe to ignore the FACT he brought aboard a Bag without asking why just not being thorough!