Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 601996 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4770 on: May 14, 2020, 03:12:11 PM »
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I question your data, your methods, and your conclusions. And the other guy too who is not a diatom expert at U Wash. If you want to do some diatom work at Tina Bar, dont bury anything, but dig. How many generations of diatom skeletons are in the strata there, in addition to fresh living ones on top? How many species did Tom find. 4? 5? 6?  more? Tom seems to be ignoring some species and basing everything on a formosa - why?

What diatom experets at U Wash have you consulted? Can you name one? What qualifies you in these matters?


* There are currently at least four people with money experiments happened at TBar this year ... you will be No.5 ... several people's bills buried there have been spotted and removed by somebody - sabotage.

This is actually a pretty good idea. That is, simply dig a hole, remove some sand, and have Tom look at it and try to identify diatoms. After all, if formosa diatoms are found in sand one foot or two feet down that settles the debate right there.

Nonetheless, I am going to bury some bills. And, I'm quite certain I do not need a diatom expert to dig a hole in the sand to bury some cash for a couple of months.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4771 on: May 14, 2020, 03:19:19 PM »
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I question your data, your methods, and your conclusions. And the other guy too who is not a diatom expert at U Wash. If you want to do some diatom work at Tina Bar, dont bury anything, but dig. How many generations of diatom skeletons are in the strata there, in addition to fresh living ones on top? How many species did Tom find. 4? 5? 6?  more? Tom seems to be ignoring some species and basing everything on a formosa - why?

What diatom experets at U Wash have you consulted? Can you name one? What qualifies you in these matters?


* There are currently at least four people with money experiments happened at TBar this year ... you will be No.5 ... several people's bills buried there have been spotted and removed by somebody - sabotage.

This is actually a pretty good idea. That is, simply dig a hole, remove some sand, and have Tom look at it and try to identify diatoms. After all, if formosa diatoms are found in sand one foot or two feet down that settles the debate right there.

Nonetheless, I am going to bury some bills. And, I'm quite certain I do not need a diatom expert to dig a hole in the sand to bury some cash for a couple of months.

Why reinvent the wheel?  Why not consult real diatom experts at U-Wash who have done every test possible and studied diatoms for 100 years! As for myself, I dont plan to re-engineer or rebuild my Toyota Sienna just to see if I can confirm it is a car.  I will rely on Toyota experts for all service/repairs. Diatoms have never been reported sprouting in a Toyota Sienna either ... good luck.  ;D   

Why re-invent the wheel?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 03:20:37 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4772 on: May 14, 2020, 08:20:25 PM »
Quote
Why re-invent the wheel?

Because it's his wheel.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 08:32:28 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4773 on: May 14, 2020, 08:30:08 PM »
Want me to fix that for ya lol...
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4774 on: May 14, 2020, 08:31:48 PM »
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Want me to fix that for ya lol...

Close enough. Hehe.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4775 on: May 15, 2020, 08:26:47 PM »
All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


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Anyone see a similarity between the objects in these two photos? Why is it when you look at photos of old decayed buried money on the internet (of which there are hundreds), you almost never see bills that have the shapes these bills do ?

BTW, the speed of Columbia water as it goes by Tina Bar is approx 2ft per second.*

*hydrologist, James Bradley USGS

**Georger's photo attached**

Georger,

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. Apologies for the long delay – been a long couple of weeks here.

I understand your theory – that the money’s edges were rounded off by river action similar to pebbles in a stream. 
Your observation is a good one.  The cash is rounded, no doubt about it.  My question is whether it is rounded two-dimensionally or three-dimensionally.  Take a look at this set of images:




This comes from a scientific experiment to observe the rounding action of a river on rock.  They started out with a three-dimensional rectangle, similar in shape to a brick of cash.  Over time, the corners rounded down.  So the figure to the right does appear similar to the Ingram money in a strictly two-dimensional way.  When you look close, you can see that the original top surface is still there, closest to the viewer, albeit shrunken. 

Here’s another graphic from the same study:




From that top edge, the matter slopes downward toward the sides, truly rounding it.  If you could slice the rock into $20 bills, with Jackson’s face looking at us, you would find that the top bill would be the smallest and roundest in shape, while the bottom bill would be the largest and most rectangular.

Here’s a side view, using a different geometric shape:




Notice that the bottom edge has stayed flat.  This means that a bundle of bills that was rounded by river action and was missing all of its printed corners could not have been lying on any of the edges, otherwise we would have one side of the bills intact.  None are there.  For this theory to hold, the Ingram bills would have to have settled and rested on their “front” or “back” billfaces.  And if that was the case, we would see the top bills missing significantly more material than the bottom bills. The FBI would easily have been able to figure out, much like a Fisher Price ring-stacking toy, which bills went where in the stack when the Ingrams found it.  They did not.

Additional caveats to the river-rounding theory:
-   Tom Kaye’s observation about the cash fanning out in water
-   The stacking of the bills in the sand having been askew (contested by some)
-   The protective bag theory. For this rounding action to work, the money has to be exposed to or within a water flow. This means it’s not in a bag. If it’s in the bag, and the bag kept the cash together upon relocation by dredge, then the dredge did not relocate the shards all over the beach. It’s one or the other. Further, if the bag is keeping it together, it's also protecting it from rounding off in the river.
-   The "intact" rubber bands that crumbled when touched were not removed by this erosion, nor by a dredge that supposedly shredded much of the cash, including directly under the band locations.

For these reasons, I believe that the cash arrived in its present condition by a process that selected the edges of the billfaces for removal (4 sides of the brick, not all 6), and the only method that has been able to satisfy me so far is human. A human would bury money/evidence, a human would stack the packets neatly, a human would have a reason to cut these bills two-dimensionally, a group of humans would trample shards all through the sand, a human would have the means to transport the money way out of the likely drop zone, a human would demand the ransom in the first place.

I hope that you don’t take any offense to my opposition to your thoughts on the money, and I welcome any and all counterpoints as part of seeking the truth.

Brian
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4776 on: May 16, 2020, 12:50:02 AM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4777 on: May 16, 2020, 01:31:26 AM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?

I don't think torque explains all of these mostly symmetrical ovals (attached). But if you can, then lay it on me.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4778 on: May 17, 2020, 12:06:49 PM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anyone see a similarity between the objects in these two photos? Why is it when you look at photos of old decayed buried money on the internet (of which there are hundreds), you almost never see bills that have the shapes these bills do ?

BTW, the speed of Columbia water as it goes by Tina Bar is approx 2ft per second.*

*hydrologist, James Bradley USGS

**Georger's photo attached**

Georger,

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. Apologies for the long delay – been a long couple of weeks here.

I understand your theory – that the money’s edges were rounded off by river action similar to pebbles in a stream. 
Your observation is a good one.  The cash is rounded, no doubt about it.  My question is whether it is rounded two-dimensionally or three-dimensionally.  Take a look at this set of images:




This comes from a scientific experiment to observe the rounding action of a river on rock.  They started out with a three-dimensional rectangle, similar in shape to a brick of cash.  Over time, the corners rounded down.  So the figure to the right does appear similar to the Ingram money in a strictly two-dimensional way.  When you look close, you can see that the original top surface is still there, closest to the viewer, albeit shrunken. 

Here’s another graphic from the same study:




From that top edge, the matter slopes downward toward the sides, truly rounding it.  If you could slice the rock into $20 bills, with Jackson’s face looking at us, you would find that the top bill would be the smallest and roundest in shape, while the bottom bill would be the largest and most rectangular.

Here’s a side view, using a different geometric shape:




Notice that the bottom edge has stayed flat.  This means that a bundle of bills that was rounded by river action and was missing all of its printed corners could not have been lying on any of the edges, otherwise we would have one side of the bills intact.  None are there.  For this theory to hold, the Ingram bills would have to have settled and rested on their “front” or “back” billfaces.  And if that was the case, we would see the top bills missing significantly more material than the bottom bills. The FBI would easily have been able to figure out, much like a Fisher Price ring-stacking toy, which bills went where in the stack when the Ingrams found it.  They did not.

Additional caveats to the river-rounding theory:
-   Tom Kaye’s observation about the cash fanning out in water
-   The stacking of the bills in the sand having been askew (contested by some)
-   The protective bag theory. For this rounding action to work, the money has to be exposed to or within a water flow. This means it’s not in a bag. If it’s in the bag, and the bag kept the cash together upon relocation by dredge, then the dredge did not relocate the shards all over the beach. It’s one or the other. Further, if the bag is keeping it together, it's also protecting it from rounding off in the river.
-   The "intact" rubber bands that crumbled when touched were not removed by this erosion, nor by a dredge that supposedly shredded much of the cash, including directly under the band locations.

For these reasons, I believe that the cash arrived in its present condition by a process that selected the edges of the billfaces for removal (4 sides of the brick, not all 6), and the only method that has been able to satisfy me so far is human. A human would bury money/evidence, a human would stack the packets neatly, a human would have a reason to cut these bills two-dimensionally, a group of humans would trample shards all through the sand, a human would have the means to transport the money way out of the likely drop zone, a human would demand the ransom in the first place.

I hope that you don’t take any offense to my opposition to your thoughts on the money, and I welcome any and all counterpoints as part of seeking the truth.

Brian

That's is? Just one short, snarky post from Robert and nothing else to say in the subject?

By the way, the direction it flows is to the sea, and that "torque" you mentioned is some kid pivoting in the sand while walking on the beach, on top of the wet money.  Prove me wrong.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4779 on: May 17, 2020, 01:07:50 PM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?

The above is presumably the "snarky" post that Unsurelock is referring to. 

I presume that Unsurelock's response means that he does not have any idea how the money bills could be "torqued" as shown on Kaye's site.  And his response means that he does not know what a "boundary layer" is in the world of fluid dynamics.  The questions I asked above are valid questions and there is nothing "snarky" about them.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4780 on: May 17, 2020, 02:14:17 PM »
Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4781 on: May 17, 2020, 03:04:45 PM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?

The above is presumably the "snarky" post that Unsurelock is referring to. 

I presume that Unsurelock's response means that he does not have any idea how the money bills could be "torqued" as shown on Kaye's site.  And his response means that he does not know what a "boundary layer" is in the world of fluid dynamics.  The questions I asked above are valid questions and there is nothing "snarky" about them.

So you are saying the Ingram money is an 'airplane wing' ? Or shows the effects that an airplane wing experiences in flight? Except in this case air is water? Its a valid hypothesis based on where the money was found next to a river . . .

Boundary layer, in fluid mechanics, is thin layer of a flowing gas or liquid in contact with a surface such as that of an airplane wing or of the inside of a pipe. ... The flow in such boundary layers is generally laminar at the leading or upstream portion and turbulent in the trailing or downstream portion.

Kaye had 3 bills. He found pieces of other bills attached to the corner of one bill, he photographed that, the pieces attached were askew (at an angle) to the bottom bill. What does that prove ?

You can see similar situations on other groups of bills the Ingrams turned in. Things move around or are moved around, in Nature.

Are you claiming all of this proves the Ingram find was in the Deadwood Tap in Fisher CO at 2:43am on Nov 29th, 1971? Of course you aren't.

BTW, nobody knows where in the bundles found by Ingram, Tom's three bills were, or fit. Tom's three bills are somewhere in this photo of the 12 groups of money brought in by Harold Ingram in a sandwich baggie.  The Ingrams were fond of sandwich baggies. Note other bills askew in these 12 groups of bills. How do these 12 groups fit back together as a composite whole under sand at Tina Bar, prior to the Ingrams finding them ? Nobody knows. Do you recall the Ingrams said they brought out their find "in pieces" - at least three pieces, maybe more, maybe a lot more. Harold didn't recall how many pieces! Harold wasn't an Archaeologist or an Avionics Engineer.       

*(1) A bill is .0043” thick. The Ingram find or apx 300 bills = 1.29” thickness. It is unknown if the Ingram find had been part of a larger amount of money, but fragments of bills found in the same area as the Ingram find (at various depths) suggests it might have been. The Ingrams said the money was wet - a drying process happened at the Ingram apartment on their kitchen table. When you look at the 12 groups the Ingrams turned in (plus several more bills they were forced to turn in later) it's almost hard to imagine these 12 groups fitting into a [300 bills = 1.29” thickness] package the Ingrams said they "pulled out in pieces".  :-\
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:41:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4782 on: May 17, 2020, 04:16:33 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means. 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4783 on: May 17, 2020, 04:18:44 PM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?

The above is presumably the "snarky" post that Unsurelock is referring to. 

I presume that Unsurelock's response means that he does not have any idea how the money bills could be "torqued" as shown on Kaye's site.  And his response means that he does not know what a "boundary layer" is in the world of fluid dynamics.  The questions I asked above are valid questions and there is nothing "snarky" about them.

So you are saying the Ingram money is an 'airplane wing' ? Or shows the effects that an airplane wing experiences in flight? Except in this case air is water? Its a valid hypothesis based on where the money was found next to a river . . .

Boundary layer, in fluid mechanics, is thin layer of a flowing gas or liquid in contact with a surface such as that of an airplane wing or of the inside of a pipe. ... The flow in such boundary layers is generally laminar at the leading or upstream portion and turbulent in the trailing or downstream portion.

Kaye had 3 bills. He found pieces of other bills attached to the corner of one bill, he photographed that, the pieces attached were askew (at an angle) to the bottom bill. What does that prove ?

You can see similar situations on other groups of bills the Ingrams turned in. Things move around or are moved around, in Nature.

Are you claiming all of this proves the Ingram find was in the Deadwood Tap in Fisher CO at 2:43am on Nov 29th, 1971? Of course you aren't.

BTW, nobody knows where in the bundles found by Ingram, Tom's three bills were, or fit. Tom's three bills are somewhere in this photo of the 12 groups of money brought in by Harold Ingram in a sandwich baggie.  The Ingrams were fond of sandwich baggies. Note other bills askew in these 12 groups of bills. How do these 12 groups fit back together as a composite whole under sand at Tina Bar, prior to the Ingrams finding them ? Nobody knows. Do you recall the Ingrams said they brought out their find "in pieces" - at least three pieces, maybe more, maybe a lot more. Harold didn't recall how many pieces! Harold wasn't an Archaeologist or an Avionics Engineer.       

*(1) A bill is .0043” thick. The Ingram find or apx 300 bills = 1.29” thickness. It is unknown if the Ingram find had been part of a larger amount of money, but fragments of bills found in the same area as the Ingram find (at various depths) suggests it might have been. The Ingrams said the money was wet - a drying process happened at the Ingram apartment on their kitchen table. When you look at the 12 groups the Ingrams turned in (plus several more bills they were forced to turn in later) it's almost hard to imagine these 12 groups fitting into a [300 bills = 1.29” thickness] package the Ingrams said they "pulled out in pieces".  :-\

See my reply to EU above.  I believe 377 is the only Avionics Engineer on this site.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:39:15 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4784 on: May 17, 2020, 04:23:59 PM »
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All,

I'm re-posting this because it got trampled by the bands-vs-straps argument back when I posted it.  Never really got to the level of a discussion.  Feedback sought. ~U


Take a look at the bills on Tom Kaye's site.  One packet of bills indicates that the top bills have been "torqued".  Would you care to offer an explanation as to how that happened?

And would you also care to make a guess as to which direction the water at the beach on Tina Bar generally flows?

The above is presumably the "snarky" post that Unsurelock is referring to. 

I presume that Unsurelock's response means that he does not have any idea how the money bills could be "torqued" as shown on Kaye's site.  And his response means that he does not know what a "boundary layer" is in the world of fluid dynamics.  The questions I asked above are valid questions and there is nothing "snarky" about them.

So you are saying the Ingram money is an 'airplane wing' ? Or shows the effects that an airplane wing experiences in flight? Except in this case air is water? Its a valid hypothesis based on where the money was found next to a river . . .

Boundary layer, in fluid mechanics, is thin layer of a flowing gas or liquid in contact with a surface such as that of an airplane wing or of the inside of a pipe. ... The flow in such boundary layers is generally laminar at the leading or upstream portion and turbulent in the trailing or downstream portion.

Kaye had 3 bills. He found pieces of other bills attached to the corner of one bill, he photographed that, the pieces attached were askew (at an angle) to the bottom bill. What does that prove ?

You can see similar situations on other groups of bills the Ingrams turned in. Things move around or are moved around, in Nature.

Are you claiming all of this proves the Ingram find was in the Deadwood Tap in Fisher CO at 2:43am on Nov 29th, 1971? Of course you aren't.

BTW, nobody knows where in the bundles found by Ingram, Tom's three bills were, or fit. Tom's three bills are somewhere in this photo of the 12 groups of money brought in by Harold Ingram in a sandwich baggie.  The Ingrams were fond of sandwich baggies. Note other bills askew in these 12 groups of bills. How do these 12 groups fit back together as a composite whole under sand at Tina Bar, prior to the Ingrams finding them ? Nobody knows. Do you recall the Ingrams said they brought out their find "in pieces" - at least three pieces, maybe more, maybe a lot more. Harold didn't recall how many pieces! Harold wasn't an Archaeologist or an Avionics Engineer.       

*(1) A bill is .0043” thick. The Ingram find or apx 300 bills = 1.29” thickness. It is unknown if the Ingram find had been part of a larger amount of money, but fragments of bills found in the same area as the Ingram find (at various depths) suggests it might have been. The Ingrams said the money was wet - a drying process happened at the Ingram apartment on their kitchen table. When you look at the 12 groups the Ingrams turned in (plus several more bills they were forced to turn in later) it's almost hard to imagine these 12 groups fitting into a [300 bills = 1.29” thickness] package the Ingrams said they "pulled out in pieces".  :-\

See me reply to EU above.  I believe 377 is the only Avionics Engineer on this site.

whatever - snarky toxicity noted - what's your important point that cant wait, if any! ?