Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1201276 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4305 on: July 05, 2019, 04:30:08 PM »
Has an agreement every been verified as to how far the dredge material was spread. this is a good distance away to have that much material.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4306 on: July 05, 2019, 05:58:09 PM »
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Has an agreement every been verified as to how far the dredge material was spread. this is a good distance away to have that much material.

The figure quoted in our FBI docs is '50 yards both directions from center' of each spoil mound. That is the reason Tom says the Ingram find can't be from the dredging. If you double that to 100 yds to allow for post dredging movement due to settling and water pressure in the direction of flow, now you are approaching site "B" where fragments were found. You might be able to close the gap further by introducing more movement north, due to high water events 1975-80.

We dont have a working model of sediment movement! We dont have photos showing an object being moved northward from 1970-80 or from 74-80. Nobody has even tried to address the issue of movement even though it definitely occurs ... in the direction of current flow, north! All we know is the Ingram find is north of the 74 dredging spoil, in the same direction as flow pressure.

Keep in mind Tom believes the Cooper money got deposited at TBar in 71! He never has explained how.

We have no lab work dating any strata!!

I think Palmer was under great pressure from Himmelsbach to build a story consistent with what Himmelsbach thought he knew! In doing that Palmer lost his scientific independence. You dont do science based on what some FBI guy is telling you what to think and do! Other agents questioned and disagreed with Himmelsbach's and Palmer interpretations. That is documented. One agent even suggested that ice brought the Ingram money onto Tina Bar.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:03:11 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4307 on: July 05, 2019, 06:00:28 PM »
I'm aware of the 50 yards. it doesn't make sense. a large majority of it would go right back in the river. then you have an issue with the placement not being far enough to the money.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4308 on: July 05, 2019, 06:04:18 PM »
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I'm aware of the 50 yards. it doesn't make sense. a large majority of it would go right back in the river. then you have an issue with the placement not being far enough to the money.

The dredge material is unstable for weeks - it goes where gravity and water pressure take it .... north toward the Ingram find location for sure. The Fazio's didnt even try to put a tractor on it for two weeks and they were behind schedule with their contract.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:05:55 PM by georger »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4309 on: July 05, 2019, 06:05:10 PM »
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Simple, Jo Weber said Duane threw the paper bag over the bridge near the Red Carpet Inn, or when Duane (aka Cooper) parked near Tbar taking a shovel with him and returning and driving off. I don't know why everyone makes this so difficult  :rofl:

Even if the money bag floated on the Washougal and Columbia water surfaces all the way from its splash down point, it would not end up at Tina Bar.  It would end up on the west side of the Columbia River when it went around that curve from west to north.  And there is no reasonable way for it to get to the east side of the river and Tina Bar.

The shipping channel at Tina Bar is on the west side of the river is dredged to a 40 foot depth.  This depth is presumably measured from a nominal surface elevation of the river.  And that surface is probably only about two or three feet above sea level.

Eric recently stated in one of his videos that the bottom of the Columbia drops off rapidly just a few feet off shore from Tina Bar.  There is no way that the money bag could go uphill if it was under water.

So my guess is that the money bag, maybe with Cooper attached, came from a location very close to Tina Bar and was actually moving downhill at that time.  This means that it arrived during a substantial flooding episode and started several feet (maybe 10 or 12) higher than the elevation at which it was found.

While I agree with your logic, no evidence of it is reported until the Ingram find in 1980. It's always hidden from sight by sand according to every report. Then only after two kids are poking around with sticks disturbing sand, is a 'hump' or an 'object' noticed which the kids then explore further ... then "Hey Daddy come look at this" and Cooper money is discovered.

TK comes along and disagrees with Palmer's reading/dating of the strata! Neither TK or Palmer do anything to try and actually date any strata found - in a lab!

In addition to that, we have no erosion model or erosion/high water model for Tina Bar! We know more about Howard Hughes' girl friends than we know about Tina Bar!

When is anyone going to start taking this seriously?   :rofl:

HH is reported to have made a scientific study of the art of pleasing his girlfriends and reportedly was an expert at that.  This is according to what some of his girlfriends have stated.  Consequently, HH apparently didn't have any vindictive girlfriends filing lawsuits against him.  That accounts for the lack of information on the girl friends since they didn't have any complaints.   
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:08:36 PM by Robert99 »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4310 on: July 05, 2019, 06:06:38 PM »
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I'm aware of the 50 yards. it doesn't make sense. a large majority of it would go right back in the river. then you have an issue with the placement not being far enough to the money.

The dredge material is unstable for weeks - it goes where gravity and water pressure take it .... north for sure.

My point would be if they didn't use it on the beach. did they use the rest for the business. if so, we are short of the money location which would not have 2-4 feet levels of dredge material?

If the sand wasn't used for the business. the dredging was pointless..
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4311 on: July 05, 2019, 06:14:08 PM »
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I'm aware of the 50 yards. it doesn't make sense. a large majority of it would go right back in the river. then you have an issue with the placement not being far enough to the money.

The dredge material is unstable for weeks - it goes where gravity and water pressure take it .... north for sure.

My point would be if they didn't use it on the beach. did they use the rest for the business. if so, we are short of the money location which would not have 2-4 feet levels of dredge material?

If the sand wasn't used for the business. the dredging was pointless..

The dredging was done to keep the shipping channel depth at 40 feet.  After the Mt. Saint Helen's explosion, the shipping channel was clogged by the volcanic materials coming down the Columbia River watershed.  The shipping channel was closed for several weeks and had to be dredged all the way to the Pacific (I think).
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4312 on: July 05, 2019, 06:19:53 PM »
I realize the material had to settle for a period. but if they failed to use it all. the whole thing was a failure.

I'm guessing they used a lot for the business. but 50 yards north and south is not going to help the erosion problem very much. 150 feet each way with over 1,500 feet north and south just in front of the business/building area...and yet, Palmer finds deep levels of dredge material past the 50 yard mark?
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4313 on: July 05, 2019, 06:55:18 PM »
I was under the impression that it would have been illegal for the Fazio's to move any of the dredged sand inland or to use it for their business. I believe the sand for their business was brought in from other places. Hager told me he watched them spread the dredged sand from across the river.(I think he witnessed this more than one time) He told me they were required to spread it a certain distance. I don't know what the exact distance they were required to spread it was but 50 yards sounds about right. Hager said they wouldn't spread it any more than was required. (they didn't spread it any less than was required either) He said they were always busy with their other businesses.(sand,farm,and whatever else) He said it was somewhat of a hassle for them.(spreading the dredgings) It cost them time and money. (fuel costs for their equipment and time that was already in a short supply) According to Hager they did nothing illegal or anything that would have violated their contract. He told me that the distance they said they spread the dredged material was to be believed .
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4314 on: July 05, 2019, 07:07:45 PM »
Two sand spoils were deposited on the beach for them to use as they wished. part of a deal I believe.

You never seen the photo of the spoils?

It was free sand to help with the erosion problem...very cost effective in my opinion..
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 07:09:01 PM by Shutter »
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4315 on: July 05, 2019, 07:08:11 PM »
In addition to previous post, for what it's worth, Hager said they would never have brought any sand from inland to spread on Tena Bar either.(it would have been illegal I believe he said) For the record, Hager said there was no dredging done (at Tena Bar) after 1974 although he observed a dredge(s?) in that area after 1974.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4316 on: July 05, 2019, 07:09:47 PM »
Nothing illegal about any of it. it's all documented..
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4317 on: July 05, 2019, 07:11:13 PM »
Keeping the channel open is a constant job. probably similar to the Golden Gate bridge always being painted.
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4318 on: July 05, 2019, 07:11:39 PM »
No Shut I didn't know that and I've never seen the photos of the 2 piles. I would like to see them.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4319 on: July 05, 2019, 07:12:04 PM »
Hang on a sec...
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