Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1200338 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3960 on: September 28, 2018, 03:36:57 PM »
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Yup, the current is strong. I got a little scared one day when I was swimming at T-Bar. and was concerned that I might get carried too far from shore for my comfort. I wasn't sure how many swirls and eddies there might be.

I actually erred. The velocity is not 2 ft/sec but 3 ft/sec. Lots of people have commented about how strong the current is just off the beach at Tina Bar. And yet things still get washed up on TBar. Makes you wonder how that happens and from what direction, and from what angle relative to the beach. R99 raised the same issue. With strong current like that it makes you wonder how anything exposed on the sand, stays on the beach for very long.

Obviously the money got 'locked in' on that sand bar with its strong currents. Things wash in and wash out - thats the common experience at Tina Bar. Even large heavy things like whole tree trunks. We need to understand the mechanics of Tina Bar better than we do!   
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3961 on: September 28, 2018, 06:36:28 PM »
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Yup, the current is strong. I got a little scared one day when I was swimming at T-Bar. and was concerned that I might get carried too far from shore for my comfort. I wasn't sure how many swirls and eddies there might be.

Current isn't constant, it changes dramatically with flow volumes..

This is a rubber banded "bundle" it was in a jar that filled with water, so water damage only. That is a rusted paper clip attached. It is torqued and distorted...   Add the abrasion from sand/waves/movement... to compare to TBAR

Another note, TBAR was likely a wet/dry cycling environment.. the edges would dry first.

This is a photo from the web: US Treasury Mutilated Money Lab - sent in for replacement. This specimen has a different history than Cooper bills. 

The Cooper bills show a very specific history; a history so specific that it would be impossible for anyone to duplicate - a history so specific no plant theory can account for. Its that simple.

Is this pix of T-Bar DBC money?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3962 on: September 28, 2018, 10:23:03 PM »
yes,,

at 1:02 of news vid, same as Georger's pic but different angle, some digging video after as well

bill at 1:07 - 1:09 might have had rubber band on top..

« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:35:00 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3963 on: September 29, 2018, 12:50:37 PM »
Quote
Is this pix of T-Bar DBC money?

If you are talking about this photo, NO, it's not T-Bar money
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3964 on: September 29, 2018, 01:28:31 PM »
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Quote
Is this pix of T-Bar DBC money?

If you are talking about this photo, NO, it's not T-Bar money

This is a pic off the internet - from the US Treasury Mutilated Money Lab - I have a hundred just like it. People send their old ruined money in to have it recorded and replaced, which is what the Ingrams originally wanted to do with their money.

Someone asked: yes, the US Treasury Forensics Lab was contacted early by my team. 2008-09. We would have sent Cooper money there for analysis except the owner of the money would not agree to the terms, ie. long turn around time with no certain schedule. That lab is extremely busy .... but we did get a lot of photos of ruined money from them from all kinds of sources, as well as a few comments about our Cooper bills.

Flyjack's photo he got on the web is from the intake section of the mutilated money lab - note the USPS Priority shipping box in the background.  Here is another photo from the paste up section of the lab. Note the same gloves being used ...

Here is another photo from the lab ...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 01:41:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3965 on: September 29, 2018, 05:51:58 PM »
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Quote
Is this pix of T-Bar DBC money?

If you are talking about this photo, NO, it's not T-Bar money

Notice the different shapes of the water damaged money. The difference is flow vs no flow.   
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3966 on: September 30, 2018, 05:38:27 PM »
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Lots of theories but no facts. Not even a factoid!  ;D

After all of these years meditating/speculating about this sand bar, we still dont have one documented example of how one single thing actually did get on Tina Bar, the route it took, its original starting point, and the currents or hydrological mechanics involved! Not one simple case! We know stuff winds up on Tina Bar - we can see that - but how does it wind up on Tina Bar. Give us one specific example!

All we have is JT's famous LIE that he released 8 ping pong balls in the Washougal and all eight wound up on Tina Bar! No photos. No nuthing.

But we have plenty of people claiming/speculating the money *floated across the river, *floated up the river, *was forced backwards up the river with reverse tides, was propellered backwards up to Tina Bar and released (The famous Tom Kaye theory)..... ad nauseum.

And a partridge in a pear tree too. If someone is going posit a theory at least tell us how it works!  :rofl:

The reason most people vote for the Dredge Theory is because it gives us a specific mechanism that people can understand and accept. Every other theory fails that test and asks us to believe a bunch of things that simply are not true!.
I just want to clarify a point you made as I think we are on the same page. The reverse river flow on the Columbia River is not a made up myth as it is a proven fact that is well documented and of course is caused by Tidal Reverse flow. The more extreme the Tide, the more extreme is the reverse flow. I can personally attest it going well up into the Willamette. However it can’t go above the Willamette Falls of course by Oregon City. Trappper John mentioned its affects not all that long ago.
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3967 on: September 30, 2018, 07:16:36 PM »
Thinking about that pressure "bump"... maybe it was caused by the bulkhead door closing/opening rather than the airstairs retracting after jump.

searching,, I found found Greg Hall's theory.. but it doesn't account for TBAR money.
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What if the bulkhead door caused the pressure bump and Cooper jumped in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath tracked closely over the Willamette River much of the way through Oregon. The Willamette River is upstream and a logical path for TBAR money. Perhaps Cooper lost the money over the Willamette River.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3968 on: September 30, 2018, 09:06:33 PM »
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Thinking about that pressure "bump"... maybe it was caused by the bulkhead door closing/opening rather than the airstairs retracting after jump.

searching,, I found found Greg Hall's theory.. but it doesn't account for TBAR money.
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What if the bulkhead door caused the pressure bump and Cooper jumped in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath tracked closely over the Willamette River much of the way through Oregon. The Willamette River is upstream and a logical path for TBAR money. Perhaps Cooper lost the money over the Willamette River.
Are you aware of how huge Willamette Falls is ? Especially in November flow ! It’s one of the widest in the world and some 40 feet high ! I seriously doubt the Cooper Money would have flowed over the Willamette Falls. I fished and Water Skied all over that area.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3969 on: September 30, 2018, 09:22:35 PM »
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Thinking about that pressure "bump"... maybe it was caused by the bulkhead door closing/opening rather than the airstairs retracting after jump.

searching,, I found found Greg Hall's theory.. but it doesn't account for TBAR money.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What if the bulkhead door caused the pressure bump and Cooper jumped in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath tracked closely over the Willamette River much of the way through Oregon. The Willamette River is upstream and a logical path for TBAR money. Perhaps Cooper lost the money over the Willamette River.
Are you aware of how huge Willamette Falls is ? Especially in November flow ! It’s one of the widest in the world and some 40 feet high ! I seriously doubt the Cooper Money would have flowed over the Willamette Falls. I fished and Water Skied all over that area.

If the money was in the front chute container tied to Cooper and he lost it..  that could go over the falls.

The falls could dislodge some bundles..
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 09:34:47 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3970 on: September 30, 2018, 09:41:02 PM »
At some point it comes down to considering what's involved with each scenario. I just do not believe a bundle of cash is, by some natural manner, going to end up washing ashore on Tena Bar, self burying, then get discovered nine years later. I think that the odds of such an occurrence are one-in-a-trillion at best all things considered.

Likewise, the dredge theory strikes me as equally implausible. It's just too fantastical in my mind.

That leaves only one scenario; the money was buried by human intervention. Of course, this assumes that the Ingram's were telling the truth.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3971 on: October 01, 2018, 12:14:40 AM »
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At some point it comes down to considering what's involved with each scenario. I just do not believe a bundle of cash is, by some natural manner, going to end up washing ashore on Tena Bar, self burying, then get discovered nine years later. I think that the odds of such an occurrence are one-in-a-trillion at best all things considered.

Likewise, the dredge theory strikes me as equally implausible. It's just too fantastical in my mind.

That leaves only one scenario; the money was buried by human intervention. Of course, this assumes that the Ingram's were telling the truth.

Millions of pieces of debris which have made the trek to T_Bar could make the same claim. It's called Innumeracy. In the case of the Cooper money there may be some mitigating factors. We just don't know all of the hydrological options in spite of the fact millions of things are brought to Tina Bar hydrologically, annually!

Human intervention does not even register on the probability scale of options. Natural forces don't talk - people do! Human intervention has about the same probability as Tom Kaye's propeller theory!

That is why most people vote for the dredging. Its a known fact that could link the money to Tina Bar, in the form the money was found at Tina Bar. 

 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 12:22:17 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3972 on: October 01, 2018, 12:18:37 AM »
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Thinking about that pressure "bump"... maybe it was caused by the bulkhead door closing/opening rather than the airstairs retracting after jump.

searching,, I found found Greg Hall's theory.. but it doesn't account for TBAR money.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What if the bulkhead door caused the pressure bump and Cooper jumped in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath tracked closely over the Willamette River much of the way through Oregon. The Willamette River is upstream and a logical path for TBAR money. Perhaps Cooper lost the money over the Willamette River.

Again,. the Tag Group looked into that option and dismissed it. The flight path did not follow the Willamette. And everyone reported Cooper was gone by the T33 rendezvous at Lake Oswego. Those facts were incorporated in the first search map prepared by the Air Force and NWA. The map had a fudge factor but it did not extend as far as the T33 intercept point in Oregon. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 01:09:25 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3973 on: October 01, 2018, 10:31:29 AM »
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Thinking about that pressure "bump"... maybe it was caused by the bulkhead door closing/opening rather than the airstairs retracting after jump.

searching,, I found found Greg Hall's theory.. but it doesn't account for TBAR money.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What if the bulkhead door caused the pressure bump and Cooper jumped in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath tracked closely over the Willamette River much of the way through Oregon. The Willamette River is upstream and a logical path for TBAR money. Perhaps Cooper lost the money over the Willamette River.

Again,. the Tag Group looked into that option and dismissed it. The flight path did not follow the Willamette. And everyone reported Cooper was gone by the T33 rendezvous at Lake Oswego. Those facts were incorporated in the first search map prepared by the Air Force and NWA. The map had a fudge factor but it did not extend as far as the T33 intercept point in Oregon.

Though I do believe Cooper jumped earlier, I haven't ruled this out. How did they determine Cooper was gone?

Is this path accurate?

also, the Willamette (drainage basin)
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3974 on: October 01, 2018, 10:55:51 AM »
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At some point it comes down to considering what's involved with each scenario. I just do not believe a bundle of cash is, by some natural manner, going to end up washing ashore on Tena Bar, self burying, then get discovered nine years later. I think that the odds of such an occurrence are one-in-a-trillion at best all things considered.

Likewise, the dredge theory strikes me as equally implausible. It's just too fantastical in my mind.

That leaves only one scenario; the money was buried by human intervention. Of course, this assumes that the Ingram's were telling the truth.

Disagree, IMO, your scenario is highly speculative and stretches reason and logic.

Requires..
Moving the flightpath,
Cooper buries money close to landing zone to retrieve later,
Buried on a sandbar near the river, extremely poor site selection for purpose.

The most plausible route is the money coming from the River. I don't really like the dredge, but that is irrelevant, the $200,000 question is how did the money get into the River upstream of TBAR.


BTW, I was looking closely at the holes in some of the bills and they look exactly like insect holes. I agree with Kaye that some were made from bacteria, but not all have that dark edge..

Perhaps some of the holes are from sand or grit that got between the bills and the abrasion created the holes during wet/dry cycles.

and if the sand at a higher volume had infiltrated the edges of the packet that abrasiveness may have caused the unique shape of deterioration.

.