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I have taken a couple of trips up the Washougal River and Little Washougal River drainage.  My very first impression was "no way."  The River was so slow moving -- getting a 20-pound bag of money to float down the Washougal undetected would be a stretch, unless it was high water runoff and fast flowing around the time of the jump.  The Washougal was much like a creek in many, many places -- the water was shallow and slow-moving.  I'm not expecting big runoff in November/December, it would more likely be in the Spring, where mountain ice packs are melting and the river runoff would be much greater.  Sorry Jerry Thomas, I am not a fan of the Washougal River theory.

MeyerLouie

Isnt it too violent when it does flood?

It's hard to tell which came first the Washougal theory or the claim they were east of V23. I will look for docs that will answer that question. In 1980 the money find joined the two forever...

I did some digging around about the Washougal River.  I saw a video of the Washougal River on 12/7/2015, the river was high, nearly flooding, it almost came up to the Washougal River Bridge.  Also, a local reported that the Washougal River can get high and wild if there's been lots of rain. 

The Columbia River flooded in 1996, crested at 27.2 feet, 11 feet above flood level.  There was the Christmas Day flood, 12/25/1964 where the Columbia River crested at 27.7 feet.  The all time high for the Columbia River was 6/13/1948 where the River crested at 31 feet.  And there was the Great Flood of 1894, where downtown Vancouver was flooded.  The Columbia River flooded in 1970, 1972, and 1974, with high crests on 1/24/70, 6/12/72, and 6/22/1974.  No flooding of the Columbia River was reported around November/December of 1971

With or without actual Columbia River flooding, the Washougal could have still raged if there was unusual heavy rainfall on or a little after 11/24/1971.  If the river was raging, then it would be possible for a 20-pound bag to float a long ways downstream, maybe even to the Columbia River.  But if we can pinpoint actual rainfall data and Washougal River water levels on or a little after 11/24/71 to be normal or minimal -- nothing out of the ordinary -- then the Washougal River theory might be a little harder to explain.  As I stated earlier, I observed the Washougal River running pretty slow and shallow in several places.  IMO, under these kinds of normal runoff conditions, I don't think it would be possible for a 20-pound bag of money to float undetected for very long, or even float at all,  since there are so many shallow, creek-like, slow-moving places along the river.

Finding rainfall amounts and Washougal River levels in late November 1971 would be helpful.  Anybody have that data handy by any chance?  I know Georger and R99 and several others have looked at National Weather Service data.  Washougal River crest levels in November 1971 should be available somewhere....

Meyer

I have no Washougal data per se, however, the suggestion that 305 'might have' been east off V23 leaving Cooper to bail in the western slope of the Washougal basin, was made clear back in 1972; according to FBI docs I have. When the TBar money was discovered in 1980 people went back and re-examined that theory.

The hydrologist  BRADLEY identified the Washougal as the only likely feeder source within the previously described drop zone that would be capable of moving a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River. He said a logical time for that to happen would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood, when parts of the river were approximately ten feet to twelve over the normal winter flood stage.

Braldey's figures agree with Columbia water level data for that date (below) which places the Columbia water level at over 16 feet which is very high at Tina Bar. These rains and flooding ended a long historic drought that had plagued the area in 1977. Whatever process brings the Cooper money to Tina Bar it must also cover the money from sight with silt, because nobody noticed any money on Tina Bar until Feb of 1980 (with fisherman using the bar constantly during that two year period).

If the money arrived approx Dec 1977, that leaves two years for further changes in the morphology at Tina Bar to happen creating the sand bar found during the excavation in 1980. Can that happen?   

There are many problems with the Washougal theory. It's hard to imagine single bundles of bills being transported all the way from the Washougal to Tina Bar - the whole bag of money is a more likely scenario. But no evidence of a money bag was found on Tina Bar. Fragments at three feet deep some distance from the Ingram bundles must also be accounted for. Money must arrive and immediately be covered so it is not seen by the large number of people using the sand bar. No distinctive geological sediments from the Washougal were found in the lab examinations of the Ingram bills. The Lab basically said 'if you rely on sediments between the bills the only contact the bills have had is with Columbia river water. The Lab report is very specific in that statement. In addition, Flight 305 must be near the Washougal basin for the Washougal theory to work, at all.     And the list goes on . . .   

The fairly deep and wide shard field residing beneath the intact stacks of bills says DREDGE to me.  Call me simple. Occam likes simple.

Landing after a nice radio jump last Sat. Made several. One of these days I want to talk to Georger from aloft. I worked 8 stations on 20M SSB. 14250 KHz.



377

smile - lets figure out a time. That would be fun ...  Do you always use 14250 ?

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The fairly deep and wide shard field residing beneath the intact stacks of bills says DREDGE to me.  Call me simple. Occam likes simple.

Landing after a nice radio jump last Sat. Made several. One of these days I want to talk to Georger from aloft. I worked 8 stations on 20M SSB. 14250 KHz.



377

Now that you are back, do you think reprocessing of the radar tapes with modern technology is possible, to show Cooper bailing (his parachute bubble)?

If radar tapes from that era are still available, you might check if there are radar tapes available from the Portland International Airport area.  Since Tina Bar is only about 10 miles from PIA, their relatively low power radars would probably still be more useful than anything from McChord AFB.   

There is a lot that might be doable if we could get access to the tapes. I did a big courtroom battle with the FBI back in the mid 1970s over the admissibility of a tape recording. It was a highly technical fight over whether the tape was an original or a copy. A mag recording expert named Jay McNight testified. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Technology has come a long way since then. The biggest problem I've encountered with old tapes is that the oxide layer flakes off of the plastic carrier tape. Some 40 year old audio tapes were playable, others were not. If the oxide layer has delaminated or disintegrated restoration of the original recorded info would appear to be hopeless.

377

There is a lot that might be doable if we could get access to the tapes. I did a big courtroom battle with the FBI back in the mid 1970s over the admissibility of a tape recording. It was a highly technical fight over whether the tape was an original or a copy. A mag recording expert named Jay McNight testified. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Technology has come a long way since then. The biggest problem I've encountered with old tapes is that the oxide layer flakes off of the plastic carrier tape. Some 40 year old audio tapes were playable, others were not. If the oxide layer has delaminated or disintegrated restoration of the original recorded info would appear to be hopeless.

377

I want to know what format these old tapes would be in? Analog - digital?  What software read them?

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I have taken a couple of trips up the Washougal River and Little Washougal River drainage.  My very first impression was "no way."  The River was so slow moving -- getting a 20-pound bag of money to float down the Washougal undetected would be a stretch, unless it was high water runoff and fast flowing around the time of the jump.  The Washougal was much like a creek in many, many places -- the water was shallow and slow-moving.  I'm not expecting big runoff in November/December, it would more likely be in the Spring, where mountain ice packs are melting and the river runoff would be much greater.  Sorry Jerry Thomas, I am not a fan of the Washougal River theory.

MeyerLouie

Isnt it too violent when it does flood?

It's hard to tell which came first the Washougal theory or the claim they were east of V23. I will look for docs that will answer that question. In 1980 the money find joined the two forever...

I did some digging around about the Washougal River.  I saw a video of the Washougal River on 12/7/2015, the river was high, nearly flooding, it almost came up to the Washougal River Bridge.  Also, a local reported that the Washougal River can get high and wild if there's been lots of rain. 

The Columbia River flooded in 1996, crested at 27.2 feet, 11 feet above flood level.  There was the Christmas Day flood, 12/25/1964 where the Columbia River crested at 27.7 feet.  The all time high for the Columbia River was 6/13/1948 where the River crested at 31 feet.  And there was the Great Flood of 1894, where downtown Vancouver was flooded.  The Columbia River flooded in 1970, 1972, and 1974, with high crests on 1/24/70, 6/12/72, and 6/22/1974.  No flooding of the Columbia River was reported around November/December of 1971

With or without actual Columbia River flooding, the Washougal could have still raged if there was unusual heavy rainfall on or a little after 11/24/1971.  If the river was raging, then it would be possible for a 20-pound bag to float a long ways downstream, maybe even to the Columbia River.  But if we can pinpoint actual rainfall data and Washougal River water levels on or a little after 11/24/71 to be normal or minimal -- nothing out of the ordinary -- then the Washougal River theory might be a little harder to explain.  As I stated earlier, I observed the Washougal River running pretty slow and shallow in several places.  IMO, under these kinds of normal runoff conditions, I don't think it would be possible for a 20-pound bag of money to float undetected for very long, or even float at all,  since there are so many shallow, creek-like, slow-moving places along the river.

Finding rainfall amounts and Washougal River levels in late November 1971 would be helpful.  Anybody have that data handy by any chance?  I know Georger and R99 and several others have looked at National Weather Service data.  Washougal River crest levels in November 1971 should be available somewhere....

Meyer

I have no Washougal data per se, however, the suggestion that 305 'might have' been east off V23 leaving Cooper to bail in the western slope of the Washougal basin, was made clear back in 1972; according to FBI docs I have. When the TBar money was discovered in 1980 people went back and re-examined that theory.

The hydrologist  BRADLEY identified the Washougal as the only likely feeder source within the previously described drop zone that would be capable of moving a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River. He said a logical time for that to happen would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood, when parts of the river were approximately ten feet to twelve over the normal winter flood stage.

Bradley's figures agree with Columbia water level data for that date (below) which places the Columbia water level at over 16 feet which is very high at Tina Bar. These rains and flooding ended a long historic drought that had plagued the area in 1977. Whatever process brings the Cooper money to Tina Bar it must also cover the money from sight with silt, because nobody noticed any money on Tina Bar until Feb of 1980 (with fisherman using the bar constantly during that two year period).

If the money arrived approx Dec 1977, that leaves two years for further changes in the morphology at Tina Bar to happen creating the sand bar found during the excavation in 1980. Can that happen?   

There are many problems with the Washougal theory. It's hard to imagine single bundles of bills being transported all the way from the Washougal to Tina Bar - the whole bag of money is a more likely scenario. But no evidence of a money bag was found on Tina Bar. Fragments at three feet deep some distance from the Ingram bundles must also be accounted for. Money must arrive and immediately be covered so it is not seen by the large number of people using the sand bar. No distinctive geological sediments from the Washougal were found in the lab examinations of the Ingram bills. The Lab basically said 'if you rely on sediments between the bills the only contact the bills have had is with Columbia river water. The Lab report is very specific in that statement. In addition, Flight 305 must be near the Washougal basin for the Washougal theory to work, at all.     And the list goes on . . .   

Okay, good information, Georger.  My main concern is how the money bag was not detected in the Washougal River, if it indeed got there from 305 on 11/24/71.  As stated earlier, the River runs slow and shallow in several places.  A bag of money would be easily seen.  If the money bag ended up in the Washougal, from 305, and if the runoff was not significant the day and several days after 11/24/1971, then why didn't anyone see the money bag?  Why didn't Jerry Thomas find it, for that matter?  What happened between November of 1971 to the flood event you described in December of 1977?  I'm telling you, we can debunk the Washougal Theory here and now if we can show the weather conditions on and after 11/24/1971 were fairly normal -- i.e., no significant rainfall and no flooding or rapid runoff due to heavy rain.  I don't know -- although I was in the Columbia River Gorge that night, and there was a wind and rain storm there the likes of which I have never seen before or since.  We need some data on rainfall amount and at what level the Washougal River crested on and several days after 11/24/71.  I would like to have that data.  Any ideas who I might talk to?  R99, any ideas?

Again, I can see no way a 20-lb money bag floating down the Washougal River, under normal weather conditions -- normal amount of rainfall and river runoff -- would go unseen for any extended period of time.  It would stand out like a sore thumb, and there most likely would have been enough traffic on the Washougal River highway for someone to notice such an object fairly quickly.  I drove that highway a couple of times, watching the River the whole way.  Something out of the ordinary, I would have easily seen.

I have to respect Jerry Thomas' work, he looked for years in the Washougal and found nothing.  Jerry's thoroughness, good work ethic, and superior skills in the elements are top of the line, and if he didn't find anything, that tells me it's most likely not there.

It amazes me how much confusion there is with the flight path -- did 305 go eastward or westward coming into Vancouver?  I've heard compelling arguments both ways.  And that's just the flight path....

Meyer

Ah, but you forget Part XVII subpart VCXYUIYT-3B in that theory!

That subpart reads:  bag of money must be in some smaller 'tributary of the Washougal', not in the Washougal itself,  and within 10ft of that smaller tributary. Because that is what Bradley stipulates (the fine print). And, said tributary-obscurus, must be 'where nobody goes'! Inaccessible. That's why nobody noticed. A place full of rattlesnakes, wild boars, charging moose, angry Amazons with knives, with a little lethal nuclear radiation thrown in for good measure.

And lastly, the whole theory does not go active until the "day-of transport on the day of the highest level of the flood", which has the whole basin flooded '10ft out of its banks'. Which banks uncertain.

In other words the money bag sits idle until the worst day of the flood in some back-water tributary, then it is washed away unnoticed into the Washougal itself where it then arrives at the Columbia also unnoticed .... just like JT's 100 ping pong balls all of which showed up at Tina Bar!

And, the money itself never picks up any sediments of the Washougal geological region, which forensics could notice because of course the money is neatly protected inside its container at all times. That explains why the Lab only found Columbia sediments on and in between the bills, after the container rotted apart in the Columbia exposing its contents to God and Jerry's pin-pong balls. No funny stuff please!

Got it?       

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There is a lot that might be doable if we could get access to the tapes. I did a big courtroom battle with the FBI back in the mid 1970s over the admissibility of a tape recording. It was a highly technical fight over whether the tape was an original or a copy. A mag recording expert named Jay McNight testified. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Technology has come a long way since then. The biggest problem I've encountered with old tapes is that the oxide layer flakes off of the plastic carrier tape. Some 40 year old audio tapes were playable, others were not. If the oxide layer has delaminated or disintegrated restoration of the original recorded info would appear to be hopeless.

377

I want to know what format these old tapes would be in? Analog - digital?  What software read them?

In 1971 the radar tapes would likely have been analog reel to reel. Hopefully they are raw radar receiver video output, pure echos, not post processing cleaned up stuff for the display.

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377

ok - good. There is a little bit about the Sage system at DZ. Thanks.