Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1200402 times)

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3510 on: September 14, 2017, 11:44:42 PM »
"Some people claim that the money was deliberately buried at Tina Bar.  But they have never been able to provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there in the first place."

Robert99, if someone did provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there - and I don't just mean pirate treasure or some unlikely means of throwing the authorities off after a decade - could you see yourself being swayed?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3511 on: September 15, 2017, 12:04:54 AM »
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Bruce, it appears you typed into the body of my post so that your paragraph below is attributed to me:

"That said, I do agree with many who have posted here and elsewhere that Dwayne/Harold Ingram, Brian's father, sure looks squirrelly in the HC docu. Is he lying to protect Rackstraw and his own involvement in a plant? I don't think so, and I say that with a strong belief, but I do acknowledge that the elder Ingram is weird. Plus, I probably wouldn't trust him with more than enough money to buy a pack of cigarettes."

I did not type this.

There are a few basic facts people left out. Well more than a few but for the time being this quick and dirty chart says what I wish to convey. Flow is south to north. Sediment flow on the beach is actually vector both back toward the river with longest component still in a north to south direction due to the force/volume of the river water. This force is more than strong enough to have moved anything in the 1974 dredging debris is a north direction basically parallel with the river flow direction and the distance 160 yards separating the dredge spoil location spread out vs the Ingram find location.

While I point this out I am not endorsing this as an explanation of the money find and what happened, but it is one possibility based on physical facts of flow directions at Tina Bar.     

Fragments found were at a depth to three to four feet in several documented cases. While the Ingram bundles were in  the most recent surface layer still being worked...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:07:51 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3512 on: September 15, 2017, 12:10:37 AM »
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"Some people claim that the money was deliberately buried at Tina Bar.  But they have never been able to provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there in the first place."

Robert99, if someone did provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there - and I don't just mean pirate treasure or some unlikely means of throwing the authorities off after a decade - could you see yourself being swayed?

I don't think anyone has, or even can, provide a meaningful reason for deliberately burying the money at Tina Bar.  There was no reasonable expectation that the buried money and fragments would ever be found at Tina Bar or anywhere else.  So burying the money at a remote location just doesn't make sense.

When Cooper jumped from the airliner at about 8:15 PM on the evening of the hijacking, the airliner was above an overcast and several additional cloud layers.  There is no way that Cooper could have known his jump location to within a circle with a radius of about 20 to 30 miles.  He did not know how high the terrain was below the airliner when he jumped.  He simply jumped into a black hole.

If Cooper survived the jump, and I don't think he did, he would have known within three or four days that the FBI were looking in the wrong location for him.  It was quite a lengthy period of time before the FBI released the serial numbers of the stolen bills and Cooper had plenty of time to move to another part of the country, or foreign country, and exchange them for untraceable bills or otherwise launder them.  So there was no reason for Cooper to do anything to try to mislead the FBI since they were not on his trail.

So to make a long story short, I cannot see any explanation for Cooper burying the bills as you suggest that would sway me.

To change the subject slightly, Georger and I are trying to locate a professional Criminal Profiler who would be willing to work up a profile on Cooper.  Do you happen to know of one?

Robert99
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3513 on: September 15, 2017, 12:13:43 AM »
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"Some people claim that the money was deliberately buried at Tina Bar.  But they have never been able to provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there in the first place."

Robert99, if someone did provide a meaningful reason for Cooper wanting to bury money there - and I don't just mean pirate treasure or some unlikely means of throwing the authorities off after a decade - could you see yourself being swayed?

I don't think anyone has, or even can, provide a meaningful reason for deliberately burying the money at Tina Bar.  There was no reasonable expectation that the buried money and fragments would ever be found at Tina Bar or anywhere else.  So burying the money at a remote location just doesn't make sense.

When Cooper jumped from the airliner at about 8:15 PM on the evening of the hijacking, the airliner was above an overcast and several additional cloud layers.  There is no way that Cooper could have known his jump location to within a circle with a radius of about 20 to 30 miles.  He did not know how high the terrain was below the airliner when he jumped.  He simply jumped into a black hole.

If Cooper survived the jump, and I don't think he did, he would have known within three or four days that the FBI were looking in the wrong location for him.  It was quite a lengthy period of time before the FBI released the serial numbers of the stolen bills and Cooper had plenty of time to move to another part of the country, or foreign country, and exchange them for untraceable bills or otherwise launder them.  So there was no reason for Cooper to do anything to try to mislead the FBI since they were not on his trail.

So to make a long story short, I cannot see any explanation for Cooper burying the bills as you suggest that would sway me.

To change the subject slightly, Georger and I are trying to locate a professional Criminal Profiler who would be willing to work up a profile on Cooper.  Do you happen to know of one?

Robert99

I located several but they want nothing to do with the Cooper case - they say not enough data to make a judgement. However a new theory has surfaced some time ago and people are slowly looking at it.

Plant: there is NO evidence of a plant - none, zip, nada!

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:14:42 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3514 on: September 15, 2017, 12:30:38 AM »
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Bruce, it appears you typed into the body of my post so that your paragraph below is attributed to me:

"That said, I do agree with many who have posted here and elsewhere that Dwayne/Harold Ingram, Brian's father, sure looks squirrelly in the HC docu. Is he lying to protect Rackstraw and his own involvement in a plant? I don't think so, and I say that with a strong belief, but I do acknowledge that the elder Ingram is weird. Plus, I probably wouldn't trust him with more than enough money to buy a pack of cigarettes."

I did not type this.

There are a few basic facts people left out. Well more than a few but for the time being this quick and dirty chart says what I wish to convey. Flow is south to north. Sediment flow on the beach is actually vector both back toward the river with longest component still in a north to south direction due to the force/volume of the river water. This force is more than strong enough to have moved anything in the 1974 dredging debris is a north direction basically parallel with the river flow direction and the distance 160 yards separating the dredge spoil location spread out vs the Ingram find location.

While I point this out I am not endorsing this as an explanation of the money find and what happened, but it is one possibility based on physical facts of flow directions at Tina Bar.     

Fragments found were at a depth to three to four feet in several documented cases. While the Ingram bundles were in  the most recent surface layer still being worked...

Let me make a couple of comments on the above.  Georger is absolutely correct that the sediments on the beach would be moved back toward the river.  The flow coming from the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the river would form a "boundary layer" between the beach and the water coming down the river on the west side of Caterpillar Island.  Further, it was down hill from the beach sands to the water.

Consequently, it is very unlikely that anything coming down the main river channel (west side of Caterpillar Island) would have been able to move onto the beach at Tina Bar.  Flooding had to be going on during the time that the money arrived at Tina Bar since it was found several feet higher (vertically) from the normal surface elevation of the river.  Also, the water coming from the east side channel could easily move sediments and sand from the adjoining Fasio sand operation to cover the money at Tina Bar.

Last year, we were not able to walk on the beach all the way south to a point where we could see the ship wreck.  There was simply a vertical wall adjoining the Fazio property and the channel water with no room for walking.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3515 on: September 15, 2017, 02:04:11 AM »
Oops. Explained below.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 02:06:05 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3516 on: September 15, 2017, 02:05:16 AM »
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Bruce, it appears you typed into the body of my post so that your paragraph below is attributed to me:

"That said, I do agree with many who have posted here and elsewhere that Dwayne/Harold Ingram, Brian's father, sure looks squirrelly in the HC docu. Is he lying to protect Rackstraw and his own involvement in a plant? I don't think so, and I say that with a strong belief, but I do acknowledge that the elder Ingram is weird. Plus, I probably wouldn't trust him with more than enough money to buy a pack of cigarettes."

I did not type this.

Oops. You are correct. I was wondering where that tidbit went...
 
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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3517 on: September 15, 2017, 10:59:31 AM »
Plant: there is NO evidence of a plant - none, zip, nada!
[/quote]

I'm not so sure. A bundle of bills makes up a six-sided, three-dimensional shape. Not a 4-sided, two-dimensional shape. Whatever degraded the quality of those bills selectively chose only four of the six sides to attack, not the "top bill" side nor the "bottom bill" side. It should have taken an equal amount of material - including the rubber bands if it was mechanical - off of the faces. It didn't. Two of the three bundles had full complements of 100 bills each.

Selecting four of the six sides suggests human selection, not micro organic, and not tumbling down a river.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3518 on: September 15, 2017, 11:44:25 AM »
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Plant: there is NO evidence of a plant - none, zip, nada!

I'm not so sure. A bundle of bills makes up a six-sided, three-dimensional shape. Not a 4-sided, two-dimensional shape. Whatever degraded the quality of those bills selectively chose only four of the six sides to attack, not the "top bill" side nor the "bottom bill" side. It should have taken an equal amount of material - including the rubber bands if it was mechanical - off of the faces. It didn't. Two of the three bundles had full complements of 100 bills each.

Selecting four of the six sides suggests human selection, not micro organic, and not tumbling down a river.
[/quote]

Unsurelock,

Get yourself over to Tom Kaye's web page and take a look at what he has done to analyze the bills.  You are going to need a better argument to suggest that all six sides of the bills were not exposed to the same thing.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3519 on: September 15, 2017, 12:36:48 PM »
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Plant: there is NO evidence of a plant - none, zip, nada!

I'm not so sure. A bundle of bills makes up a six-sided, three-dimensional shape. Not a 4-sided, two-dimensional shape. Whatever degraded the quality of those bills selectively chose only four of the six sides to attack, not the "top bill" side nor the "bottom bill" side. It should have taken an equal amount of material - including the rubber bands if it was mechanical - off of the faces. It didn't. Two of the three bundles had full complements of 100 bills each.

Selecting four of the six sides suggests human selection, not micro organic, and not tumbling down a river.

Unsurelock,

Get yourself over to Tom Kaye's web page and take a look at what he has done to analyze the bills.  You are going to need a better argument to suggest that all six sides of the bills were not exposed to the same thing.
[/quote]

Hi, Robert.

I have read Kaye's site in its entirety, plus the books of Rhodes & Calame, Bruce Smith, Geoffrey Gray, George Nuttall and Tom Colbert, so far. And Tom's mention that he found no diatoms on the bills should serve as a hint that perhaps the money was buried.

All bills were missing each edge completely, to a depth that was several times the thickness of a single bill, agreed? So it's simple: we should have found no more than one of the three bundles to contain 100 bills. If four edges were missing completely, the other two should also have been missing completely. The river or bacteria or fish or what have you should have eaten off a similar layer of material. This didn't happen.

Also, Dwayne Ingram said, "..three driftwoods tumbled up." Not "one big brick tumbled up." If these were brought by the river and found together, the top bill of one bundle would be stuck to the bottom bill of the bundle above it. They weren't stuck together.

I don't think it's too nuts  to consider.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:38:16 PM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3520 on: September 15, 2017, 01:46:04 PM »
A plant doesn't make any sense. only luck found the bills. believing they pushed pieces down 3 feet is not logical..sure they might of contaminated the scene to some extent, but not to that degree. it seems everyone tries there hardest, like promoting a suspect to build the plant theory up. Cooper could of picked much easier ways to throw them off.

Putting the Ingram's into the theory would mean they know who Cooper is, or was. Tom Colbert is trying that angle. it doesn't fit either.

when did Cooper bury the money, soon after, or years later. if it was years later what is he really throwing off? they still don't have a clue, so why would he plant the money years later? if it was soon after, he would have to have dug pretty deep. the erosion would expose the money. I believe that is possible, but not with a plant. lots of confliction's about the way the sand was spread, and the layers..I lean towards the dredge more than anything but can't prove it without seeing what a dredge would actually do to the money.

Farflung showed several articles about people missing. I'm sure all kinds of theory came of them. one was an older man who went missing for a month, only to be found 50 feet or so off a main road. his car was hidden by tree's. he had a heart attack, I believe. I'm sure everyone was way off base on what happened to him...
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3521 on: September 15, 2017, 02:03:43 PM »
One T Bar aspect that I am pleased has been sidelined is the alleged cattle mutilation. I was always amazed that people turned decomposition and  scavenger damage into alien surgery.

Once I saw the TV news show with the shards I (reluctantly) kissed the T bar money plant theory goodbye.

Brian's dad just seemed sooooo shifty and untruthful when he was describing the money find on the Case Closed interview. But maybe he is that way about everything. 

377
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3522 on: September 15, 2017, 02:05:27 PM »
Shutter wrote: "Farflung showed several articles about people missing. I'm sure all kinds of theory came of them. one was an older man who went missing for a month, only to be found 50 feet or so off a main road. his car was hidden by tree's. he had a heart attack, I believe. I'm sure everyone was way off base on what happened to him..."

And now Farflung has disappeared. Sure miss that guy.

377
 

Offline JLa

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The money!!
« Reply #3523 on: September 15, 2017, 03:19:41 PM »
If this has been covered before; I apologize but does any one have any theories or ideas about why he asked for 200k? If you think about it; it's kind of a odd amount. Why not ask for a quarter million or a half million? 200k just sounds so "precise" and almost pretentious to me.

Shutter; I'm not sure if this should go in this section directly so if you feel it should be moved to another; please do.

 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3524 on: September 15, 2017, 04:09:56 PM »
JLa wrote: "200k just sounds so "precise" and almost pretentious to me."

I have no good ideas on why that amount was requested by Cooper.

Precise yes, but why is that precise request seen as pretentious?

McCoy showed that DBC left a lot of money on the table asking for only $200K.
McCoy demanded $500K, got it, successfully landed it and got it home.

377
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 04:10:45 PM by 377 »