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As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom

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Wimpy conclusions?  I rest my case.

Meyer

Yes, that's absurd. He might as well say his search for diatoms was superficial and incomplete?

I talked to several well known diatom researchers at UWash and they told me one would expect there to be diatoms where the Ingram money was found ... they wanted to look at the bills and were even willing to go to Tina Bar and do several tests (good research project for their grad students) but alas Brian Ingram backed out leaving everyone stranded with nowhere to go ... it was a huge disappointment.   

Brian prayed on the matter and evidently got contrary instructions to back out and screw 15 people in the process!    He didn't bother to call or email ... just left everyone hanging .... wouldn't respond  ... we finally asked Jerry Thomas to intercede and he answered Jerry's call almost immediately. Jerry called us back and gave us the bad news. We were flabbergasted. We had promised to supply Brian with copies of all the research free. We felt that might increase the value of his bills at auction time, for one thing.  Sometimes one does not know from where a thing cometh nor whither it goeth and for why! 

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I didn't know about that one, Georger.  Too bad, I can only imagine how disappointed everyone must have been.  One more thought:  if the Ingrams had bleached washed the bills, wouldn't that pretty much kill the diatoms?  Or could some diatoms have been salvaged in spite of the bleach wash -- maybe embedded deeply between the bills?  Kaye did initially say no diatoms were found.  I'm wondering if this is the reason why.  If so, it's possible then that the bills could have been in the River -- it's just that the diatoms got washed out by the bleach wash in the Ingram's kitchen sink.

Meyer
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I dont really know how thoroughly money was washed and by whom. All I have is what Ingram's mother passed along to Brian to tell us, ie her washing in the sink, use of Clorox and dish soap at one point, drying on the kitchen table etc. The FBI did some lab analysis and finger printing of some bills.

When you look at the groups the Ingrams turned in, as shown at the press conference, I dont see any washed, cleaned, and pressed individual bills there ... just groups of attached bills. On the other hand we know Crystal Ingram turned in 2-4 extra individual bills later, the Ingrams had held back as souvenirs so maybe there were some individual bills not shown in the FBI press photos.

I have no idea what state the insurance company bills are in...

Somehow, we get from the the original unsorted groups shown on the table at the FBI press conference to the "individual" bills shown by the FBI (in folders) and media photos starting later, when? By the end of February 1980? I have never seen photos of the insurance company's bills. But somebody separated and sorted all of the groups shown by the FBI in 1980, to get a count and examine the order. Was there some cleaning? That is how the FBI was able to say: 'the order of serial numbers was the same as when given to Cooper'.

     

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As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wimpy conclusions?  I rest my case.

Meyer

Yes, that's absurd. He might as well say his search for diatoms was superficial and incomplete?

I talked to several well known diatom researchers at UWash and they told me one would expect there to be diatoms where the Ingram money was found ... they wanted to look at the bills and were even willing to go to Tina Bar and do several tests (good research project for their grad students) but alas Brian Ingram backed out leaving everyone stranded with nowhere to go ... it was a huge disappointment.   

Brian prayed on the matter and evidently got contrary instructions to back out and screw 15 people in the process!    He didn't bother to call or email ... just left everyone hanging .... wouldn't respond  ... we finally asked Jerry Thomas to intercede and he answered Jerry's call almost immediately. Jerry called us back and gave us the bad news. We were flabbergasted. We had promised to supply Brian with copies of all the research free. We felt that might increase the value of his bills at auction time, for one thing.  Sometimes one does not know from where a thing cometh nor whither it goeth and for why! 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I didn't know about that one, Georger.  Too bad, I can only imagine how disappointed everyone must have been.  One more thought:  if the Ingrams had bleached washed the bills, wouldn't that pretty much kill the diatoms?  Or could some diatoms have been salvaged in spite of the bleach wash -- maybe embedded deeply between the bills?  Kaye did initially say no diatoms were found.  I'm wondering if this is the reason why.  If so, it's possible then that the bills could have been in the River -- it's just that the diatoms got washed out by the bleach wash in the Ingram's kitchen sink.

Meyer

I dont really know how thoroughly money was washed and by whom. All I have is what Ingram's mother passed along to Brian to tell us, ie her washing in the sink, use of Clorox and dish soap at one point, drying on the kitchen table etc. The FBI did some lab analysis and finger printing of some bills.

When you look at the groups the Ingrams turned in, as shown at the press conference, I dont see any washed, cleaned, and pressed individual bills there ... just groups of attached bills. On the other hand we know Crystal Ingram turned in 2-4 extra individual bills later, the Ingrams had held back as souvenirs so maybe there were some individual bills not shown in the FBI press photos.

I have no idea what state the insurance company bills are in...

Somehow, we get from the the original unsorted groups shown on the table at the FBI press conference to the "individual" bills shown by the FBI (in folders) and media photos starting later, when? By the end of February 1980? I have never seen photos of the insurance company's bills. But somebody separated and sorted all of the groups shown by the FBI in 1980, to get a count and examine the order. Was there some cleaning? That is how the FBI was able to say: 'the order of serial numbers was the same as when given to Cooper'.

   
[/quote]

The aircraft shown in that photograph is not the hijacked airliner and the picture was not taken in Reno.  Pictures taken in Reno show different damage to the stair's side curtain.

Did Cooper have a specific landing zone in mind?  Probably not, although there are indications he wanted to jump sooner (or closer to Seattle) than later.  Further, the airliner was above an overcast at 5000 feet with multiple cloud layers below that overcast and Cooper could not see the ground on a very dark and rainy night.

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The aircraft shown in that photograph is not the hijacked airliner and the picture was not taken in Reno.  Pictures taken in Reno show different damage to the stair's side curtain.

Did Cooper have a specific landing zone in mind?  Probably not, although there are indications he wanted to jump sooner (or closer to Seattle) than later.  Further, the airliner was above an overcast at 5000 feet with multiple cloud layers below that overcast and Cooper could not see the ground on a very dark and rainy night.

Are you sure, that pic is from FBI files, it wouldn't change the overall theory though...

the broader point, the stairs wouldn't have been locked down and moving to the end at speed would have been a struggle in dress shoes, packs and money/briefcase? Those stairs would have been pushed up with force.. the hijackers weight would have pushed down on the stairs but how much? and what was the size of the opening at that speed in those conditions?

The hijacker could have lost possession of some money/briefcase in the stairway when he left the plane and that money/briefcase fell minutes later into the Columbia River...  of course impossible to know but it can rationalize the V23 flightpath and TBAR money find location which has been virtually irreconcilable.

Okay, the aircraft shown in your two pictures is the actual hijacked airliner (N467US) and the pictures were probably taken at SEATAC in Seattle, maybe the day after the hijacking, or more likely, during the FBI drop tests in early 1972.

The actual flight path, what happened to Cooper, and how the money arrived at Tina Bar are eminently reconcilable. Mother Nature can do it all without the need for miracles or Divine Intervention much less human intervention.  I have discussed this at considerable length on another thread on this site, as well as elsewhere.

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The aircraft shown in that photograph is not the hijacked airliner and the picture was not taken in Reno.  Pictures taken in Reno show different damage to the stair's side curtain.

Did Cooper have a specific landing zone in mind?  Probably not, although there are indications he wanted to jump sooner (or closer to Seattle) than later.  Further, the airliner was above an overcast at 5000 feet with multiple cloud layers below that overcast and Cooper could not see the ground on a very dark and rainy night.

Are you sure, that pic is from FBI files, it wouldn't change the overall theory though...

the broader point, the stairs wouldn't have been locked down and moving to the end at speed would have been a struggle in dress shoes, packs and money/briefcase? Those stairs would have been pushed up with force.. the hijackers weight would have pushed down on the stairs but how much? and what was the size of the opening at that speed in those conditions?

The hijacker could have lost possession of some money/briefcase in the stairway when he left the plane and that money/briefcase fell minutes later into the Columbia River...  of course impossible to know but it can rationalize the V23 flightpath and TBAR money find location which has been virtually irreconcilable.

To be fair, several people believe Dorwin Schreuder slipped when he mentioned 'part of a briefcase' at all, being found on Tina Bar. Dorwin backed up quickly trying to quash the 'mistake', if it was a mistake.

I could see Cooper intentionally leaving the brief case stuffed with a few bundles on the stairs, as a calling card and a diversion he wanted to fall later, after his jump point. It's a weak ploy with no guarantee of discovery. But I could see him trying something like that. We know the stairs snap back up almost instantly once weight is off them. Then they relax a bit and anything still on the stairs could work its way out and fall ... maybe Cooper knew that?   Maybe what he didn't expect was it falling into the Columbia to be found years later instead of the next day or days later?

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The aircraft shown in that photograph is the hijacked airliner but the picture was not taken in Reno.  Pictures taken in Reno show different damage to the stair's side curtain.

Did Cooper have a specific landing zone in mind?  Probably not, although there are indications he wanted to jump sooner (or closer to Seattle) than later.  Further, the airliner was above an overcast at 5000 feet with multiple cloud layers below that overcast and Cooper could not see the ground on a very dark and rainy night.

Takeaway, there may be a simple explanation that maintains the original flightpath (LZ) and TBAR money find..

No need to come up with spectacular explanations, ships dragging, whales, reverse water-flows, new flightpaths, planted money, accomplices, remote river streams, etc..

Sometimes simple is better.

Simple is indeed better.  There are markings on the "FBI map" that indicate the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side and flew almost directly over Tina Bar.  Further, Georger has quoted one of the flight crew as saying the airliner was west of Interstate 5 while in the Portland area.  This means it was well west of V-23 and was probably taking a direct path from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection which is quite a distance south of Portland on V-23.

Mother Nature can then get the money to Tina Bar without assistance.

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The aircraft shown in that photograph is the hijacked airliner but the picture was not taken in Reno.  Pictures taken in Reno show different damage to the stair's side curtain.

Did Cooper have a specific landing zone in mind?  Probably not, although there are indications he wanted to jump sooner (or closer to Seattle) than later.  Further, the airliner was above an overcast at 5000 feet with multiple cloud layers below that overcast and Cooper could not see the ground on a very dark and rainy night.

Takeaway, there may be a simple explanation that maintains the original flightpath (LZ) and TBAR money find..

No need to come up with spectacular explanations, ships dragging, whales, reverse water-flows, new flightpaths, planted money, accomplices, remote river streams, etc..

Sometimes simple is better.

Simple is indeed better.  There are markings on the "FBI map" that indicate the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side and flew almost directly over Tina Bar.  Further, Georger has quoted one of the flight crew as saying the airliner was west of Interstate 5 while in the Portland area.  This means it was well west of V-23 and was probably taking a direct path from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection which is quite a distance south of Portland on V-23.

Mother Nature can then get the money to Tina Bar without assistance.

There is also a lot of evidence for the V23 path.

I don't reject your theory, I just believe that the original flightpath is much more likely. The TBAR money find and v23 flightpath has induced a cognitive dissonance, "both can't be true". Not true, there may be a mutual explanation.

What is your confidence level in your theory 1-100.  What if you are wrong?
My objective has been to focus where others haven't with the assumption that everything has been extensively covered by others and nothing has been solved.

Similar to Nash Equilibrium and Game Theory.. Assume the most obvious has been exhausted with poor success and focus outside it.

THE FOLLOWING IS WRITTEN BY ROBERT99:

IN SOME WAY THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND, I MANAGED TO EDIT FLYJACK'S POST WHILE TRYING TO REPLY TO IT.  I ALSO COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO MY REPLY.  SO SOME OF FLYJACK'S ORIGINAL POST WAS DELETED AS NOT REVELANT TO MY REPLY, AND I ALSO CORRECTED A STATEMENT OF MINE THAT HE HAD QUOTED.  I AM ALSO ADDING A REMARK IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION THAT I DID NOT ORIGINALLY REPLY TO.  WHAT FOLLOWS THIS NOTE IS MY REPLY AND WHAT I DELETED FROM FLYJACK'S POST IS APPARENTLY LOST.

My confidence level in my theory is 95+ percent.  Basically, the money at Tina Bar could not have gotten there by any other means.

Everybody in Portland says the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side and so does one of the flight crew members.  If the airliner had stayed on V-23 in the Portland area, it would have passed on the east side of Portland.

Before the airliner took off from Seattle, the flight crew discussed getting above the overcast and then flying out over the Pacific until Cooper departed.  But they were over ruled on that point by NWA management.

The air traffic control communications between the airliner and the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center have been sanitized so that the location of the airliner can not be determined from them while they were under the control of that Center.  Nevertheless, when the crew thought Cooper had jumped, the co-pilot, by his own admission, told the Center controllers to "mark your maps".  He obviously did not know their exact position at that time or else he would have told the controllers where they were.  This means they were NOT on V-23 at that point and were just flying vectors as directed by the controllers.

And again, the simplest explanation of all is the one where Mother Nature does all the work.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I managed to edit FLYJACK's post instead of creating a new Robert99 reply to that post?
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MY REPLY TO FLYJACK -


I have no idea whose post is whose here - if you wiped out a /quote/ marker at the end of Robert99's post?

It looks like you incorporated other people's quotes in your post? Its very confusing now to know who said what.

The embedding isnt working here for some reason ....

 

My confidence level in my theory is 95+ percent.  Basically, the money at Tina Bar could not have gotten there by any other means. Robert99

You have pointed out inconsistencies, contradictions and missing info for the FBI flightpath. However, no smoking gun to prove the TBAR path vs FBI path. The other issue is logic and human nature. Not knowing how the money got to TBAR suggests another flightpath. This is false logic.

If the money were never found at TBAR would you have a 95% confidence in that flightpath? In other words, a search to reconcile the unknown is part of human nature but not necessarily true. We all do it.

If Cooper did lose some of the money on the stairway and it fell off minutes later into the Columbia (in the briefcase or tied up in a piece of the chute) that would explain and reconcile TBAR and the FBI flightpath. There may be another explanation that we don't know.

I am not discounting your theory as an option but I have far less confidence in it. There is still stronger evidence for the FBI flightpath.

Take out the TBAR money find and where do we stand on the fightpath options..