Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1796996 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2490 on: December 23, 2016, 10:19:18 PM »
Quote
We have bills buried in Tena beach sand now since 2009 so about 7 years. I pulled them out last year to give them a look and they were remarkably well preserved. This suggests that water and sand alone will not degrade the bills to the extent seen in the Cooper bills. Biologic factors are most likely the degraders

This is a controlled test, correct? sand that you have at your location?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:57:28 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2491 on: December 24, 2016, 01:07:42 AM »
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one of the concerns I have is the amount of bills vs rubber bands. a small stack will not suppurt a rubber band and will likely fold?
Possibly, might need something like a piece of wire to hold it in place etc. If you cut a 5 stack into 3-4 sections you could stack those up to beef it up.

Tom

Okay, will do...Thanks Tom

Given Tom's remarks above you might want to wait before going ahead and burying anything until the January program has aired?
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2492 on: December 24, 2016, 02:41:32 AM »

Our new info has nothing to do with TB so proceed.

The money burial test we have is in Ball jars with TB sand and water sealed in the jar.

Tom Kaye
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2493 on: December 24, 2016, 10:33:12 AM »
The test will probably begin sometime in January. I want to hear all of the possibilities for testing before moving forward. we need to find a source that has more than one vintage bill for sale. Ebay has a few up for sale, but not the amount needed.

If we don't use big enough bundles for the rubber bands, could hard wood be a possible replacement, or what would work as an alternative?




« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:57:09 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2494 on: December 24, 2016, 10:54:29 AM »
Items needed...

1) Cash
2) Rubber bands
3) Camera
4) Measuring device.
5) GPS locator.
6) Trip wire with explosives (just kidding)
7) Map of location.
8} small shovel. even a gardening thingy...

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:56:55 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2495 on: December 24, 2016, 11:20:35 AM »
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Dave-Meyer, how many parcels of bills are you planning on using in this experiment? I may have an idea.. for testing the three main theories about how money got to Tina Bar ?

1. Schreuder: Dredging theory - spent time in the Columbia before being deposited on Tina Bar.
2. R99: spent time elsewhere before migrating to Tina Bar via hydrology.
3. Tom: Was always on Tina Bar.

Lets get input from as many people as possible, R99, Tom, etc ... as a foundation.

Ross Richards (NMIwrecks) explained that water would actually preserve the money. if it spent time on land, how long till it was exposed from the bag failing? these problems make it tough to follow, and then the fact of nobody finding above ground cash, bundle, bag?

a bundle could be made with similar values paper currency has and placed above ground. since it's not real currency it should have no value to anyone if they stumble onto it.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:56:30 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2496 on: December 26, 2016, 11:08:45 PM »
Hi guys,
Happy Holidays!  I don't know much about items buried in soil, but I do have some experience with things that have spent time underwater.  Things like paper, fabric, corn, wheat, and even human remains can spend decades, even over a century underwater and remain remarkably preserved.  There are two things that are necessary for this.  First, cold water.  The colder, the better, obviously.  Second, not being exposed to moving water.  If an item is in a box, package or maybe a sealed room in a shipwreck, chances are it will be well preserved for an amazing amount of time (decades).  Here is an interesting article about a preserved body in a shipwreck:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2497 on: December 27, 2016, 03:15:31 PM »
Sorry I havent been here much - its been insanely busy here with the Holidays.

Nmi's remarks are well taken. Even if the money spent time on the Columbia bottom, it's final days/years were spent buried in sand at Tina Bar. Everyone concedes that. There are no "facts" to suggest anything else, in spite of Jo Weber's contention (again over the holidays) that the money spent time molding away in a 5 gallon plastic bucket, somewhere! The only two tests we can reasonably test for are (a) sand, and (b) Columbia river water; within the known parameters defined by the Palmer report and the KIRO video.

I think it is very important the money have direct exposure to the environment (sand & water) and not be contained or shielded in any way, in a wrapper, glass, or anything else. Direct exposure is key... in an environment which matches as closely as possible the environment where the Ingram bundles and pieces were found (if that even exists on Tina Bar today).   
 
May the Force be with you!   ;)

     
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 03:18:42 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2498 on: December 27, 2016, 04:53:08 PM »
Meyer could collect river water and sand for a different test....

I think one bundle untouched for the entire duration will be needed. this way we can see what happens once it's uncovered. the bands will either be gone, or still attached, and crumble to the touch...this should show whether or not the sand held everything together...

The other test bundle will be checked over the testing period so the bands might act differently.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2499 on: December 27, 2016, 11:51:41 PM »
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Meyer could collect river water and sand for a different test....

I think one bundle untouched for the entire duration will be needed. this way we can see what happens once it's uncovered. the bands will either be gone, or still attached, and crumble to the touch...this should show whether or not the sand held everything together...

The other test bundle will be checked over the testing period so the bands might act differently.

I tend to agree with this. It will be interesting to see how the bands respond in a one year cycle, buried. Let me PM you with an idea for a control test ...  8) 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2500 on: December 28, 2016, 12:00:10 AM »
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Meyer could collect river water and sand for a different test....

I think one bundle untouched for the entire duration will be needed. this way we can see what happens once it's uncovered. the bands will either be gone, or still attached, and crumble to the touch...this should show whether or not the sand held everything together...

The other test bundle will be checked over the testing period so the bands might act differently.

I tend to agree with this. It will be interesting to see how the bands respond in a one year cycle, buried. Let me PM you with an idea for a control test ...  8)

Ok, I was also wondering if a piece of wood or plastic could replace the bundle for the band test? this way you don't need 75-100 bills to make a bundle?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 12:00:32 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2501 on: December 28, 2016, 12:03:21 AM »
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Meyer could collect river water and sand for a different test....

I think one bundle untouched for the entire duration will be needed. this way we can see what happens once it's uncovered. the bands will either be gone, or still attached, and crumble to the touch...this should show whether or not the sand held everything together...

The other test bundle will be checked over the testing period so the bands might act differently.

I tend to agree with this. It will be interesting to see how the bands respond in a one year cycle, buried. Let me PM you with an idea for a control test ...  8)

Ok, I was also wondering if a piece of wood or plastic could replace the bundle for the band test? this way you don't need 75-100 bills to make a bundle?

Frankly I dont see why not unless Tom has some objection I cant think of... use plastic vs wood because its less interactive.

I cant think of any specific interaction between the bands and the money that is crucial to what we are doing?

Maybe Tom or someone else has a thought on this?

I sent you & Meyer an idea for a control ...

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 12:10:03 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2502 on: December 28, 2016, 12:10:39 AM »
My thought are that the sand held everything together making the bands not so relevant to the condition of the bills, or the time frame. based on the control test of 7 years, and nothing happening, I'm guessing this test will give positive results.

what people forget is this is not paper, so it will take time to break down.

If the money was in the Columbia, the bands would probably been intact, or in decent condition. it would of only been about 3 years underwater, and possibly wrapped tight in the bag (speculation) 1971 was basically over...it could of been a time capsule.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2503 on: December 28, 2016, 12:15:53 AM »
I'm still not sure what the pump would do. could the bag have shot right through, did it get hung up like a dryer going round and round taking a beating? will the bills start breaking up into pieces over time?

I'm still on the fence about the money being close by and yet nobody found it. a flood could of surface buried it though....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2504 on: December 28, 2016, 12:49:00 AM »
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My thought are that the sand held everything together making the bands not so relevant to the condition of the bills, or the time frame. based on the control test of 7 years, and nothing happening, I'm guessing this test will give positive results.

what people forget is this is not paper, so it will take time to break down.

If the money was in the Columbia, the bands would probably been intact, or in decent condition. it would of only been about 3 years underwater, and possibly wrapped tight in the bag (speculation) 1971 was basically over...it could of been a time capsule.

I think you could bury a handful of those bands at some depth and get results that have some degree of validity, as to what happens to bands... this is why I sent you and Meyer an idea for a control in this test.

We know there is a six month clock on these bands, more-or-less. What we dont know is the exact processes involved. That imho was poorly defined. Likewise, I think the description of the bands when Ingram found the money has been *very poorly stated and *very poorly defined, to date (the descriptions given to date suffer from conflicting testimony).

Key to the breakdown of those bands are *temperature and *UV exposure and *exposure to oxygen. Given those three ingredients you can see how different environments should produce different degradation results over time, at different rates, if everything else is equal. For example, I would expect bands located at the bottom of the Columbia in a cold stable environment with little oxygen to degrade at a slower rate than bands near the surface buried in sand on Tina Bar. Likewise, bands buried at 3 feet deep in sand at Tina Bar would degrade at another rate. The rate of degradation should be environment specific according to *temperature, *UV exposure, and *oxygen level.

If the money and bands spent parts of eight years in different environments, then the bands could reflect degradation accumulated in multiple environments?

All of this is why Tom was trying to conduct tests in different environments; to get a comparison between gross environments.

Fortunately there is a control already in place, supplied by the maker of the bands. The maker conducted a number of tests on these bands prior to any involvement with the Cooper case, testing shelf life and other parameters of their different bands visi-a-vis the chemistry of their bands. On top of that others have tested rubber band chemistry and rubber band degradation, clear down to the molecular level - so there is a supporting literature on that. The life cycle options of this class of rubber bands is pretty well understood and serves as a comparison to anyone conducting tests, of whatever nature. I believe what the Ingram's found and described fits well with the scientific literature available on the subject. I probably should pass some of that literature to both you and Meyer so you have that resource at your disposal. 
 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 01:08:56 AM by georger »