Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1665794 times)

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2160 on: July 18, 2016, 03:22:53 PM »
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What do you all think about Brian's father's History Channel account of the Tena bar money find? Credible?

377

I think Harold is lying through his teeth - about something. It all seemed to be triggered by "that hippie couple" and "drugs".  Fuentes picked up on it immediately and classified Harold's body language as 'getting ready to fight'.

I dont think Harold is capable of telling the "whole truth" at any time. He's hiding something. Harold's second performance on the beach was better but it still had all the traits of a made up story.

Brian is the one that let it slip the "stuggling family's" major concern in the beginning was getting a fat reward. A "$200,000" dollar reward? Was the reward offered by the FBI ever that high? I dont think so!! Brian says something about a "fat reward being dangled in front of a struggling family". ? Is Brian now saying they already knew there was a fat reward for Cooper money and Cooper evidence even before they found the money? That's not the original story they gave when this money was found. They told people they had found money at Tena Bar and "what can we do about it?". They asked for help and advice, at Dwanye's work, they called a bank, and they called the Sherriff's Dept before ever calling the FBI. It was the Sherriff's Dept who told them to call the FBI - this wasn't Harold's idea!

Is Brian saying that if they hadn't thought there was a reward they wouldn't have turned the money in at all or ever called the FBI ? They even called radio stations trying to pump up support for the FBI giving them a reward.

The original story is they didnt know what they had found. They intended to redeem the bills at a bank and they tried to clean the money up for that purpose. This somehow morphs into them suspecting they had found Cooper money with a $200,000 reward, before they even called the FBI, and when Harold calls the FBI he "pimps" the FBI by saying: "do these serial numbers mean anything to you?". Harold somehow already knew he might have Cooper money! Maybe the Sherriff's Dept had suggested it. But Brian is now saying they thought a fat reward was there to get!

In the HC interview Harold also lets it slip he had discovered Tena Bar before and thought it was a nice place to "hang out", I believe he says. A "place to hang out" ?  What? He likes hanging out with fish and raccoons on an isolated beach less accessible than other beaches and 4.7 miles away from Vancouver!? The family's original story is they had never been at Tena Bar before!

I mark Harold as self deluded dodger and an opportunist who circulates relying on gossip rumors to support his meager lifestyle. This family is a disadvantaged family that has always relied on their luck. I dont think the money was a plant at Tena Bar, based on the forensic evidence, but I do think it's entirely possible Harold or Pat had heard through the grapevine that somebody had seen or found money at Tena Bar, so Harold took the family out there to look for it! He may have encountered somebody in one of his visits to Tena Bar, who had seen pieces of money out there on the beachhead. He now admits it wasnt the first time he had been out there - which is brand new in his story. Agent DS says when he and fellow agents got to Tena Bar "a blind man could have followed the fragments up the beach where the Ingram money was found". And Harold now says he told Brian to "try over there"!

Is Brian now saying if there hadn't been "a reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family, they wouldnt have turned the money in at all ? I guess they would have gone with their original plan to go to a bank instead? And what reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family" ? Is Brian contending the reward being offered in the Cooper case had the Ingram family's name on it ... in 1971?  This is ridiculous, but it reveals how this family thinks and operates.

Harold says he wishes he had never found the money. That part may very well be true!   :))             

Georger,

Finding that money was a big deal.  Would you have expected the FBI to question the Ingrams extensively trying to find out exactly what you suggest?  For instance, "Why did you look there?".  "Did anyone else tell you there might be money there?".  Etc.  Etc.

If Harold had not thought it through thoroughly, I would think the FBI could get the full story out of them pretty quickly.

On the other hand, his trying to figure out what to do with the money is consistent with someone finding it unexpectedly.


That said, having an eight year old boy find it, as opposed to a hippy twenty something, would create more public support for getting to keep the money.

I think this has been discussed before, but if I remember my law course correctly a person finding property has more rights to it than anyone else in the world EXCEPT THE RIGHTFUL OWNER.  It seems to me the insurance company would be the rightful owner and entitled to all of it.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2161 on: July 18, 2016, 03:31:39 PM »
A California couple was out walking the dog around their property last year when they stumbled across eight buried cans—with an estimated $10 million worth of gold coins inside. A year later, the rare coin dealer approached by the anonymous couple went public with the find on Tuesday. The long delay from find to fame was partly because of questions about how strong the couples claim to ownership was for the roughly 1,400 gold coins, dated from 1847 to 1894.

And it turns out that, in many cases, finders really are keepers.

Governments have been issuing rules about lost and found property—who owns it and how it shall be divided—for millennia. If a Roman walking around the Coliseum grounds in the days of Emperor Hadrian’s rule stumbled upon a half-buried pot full of bronze bars, half went to the lucky Roman, half to Hadrian. Today, if an Londoner unearths rare golden coins in his backyard, those belong to the royal family—who would likely pay the digger a handsome fee.
In modern day America, the presumption is “finders-keepers”—though there is a web of statutes and case law that can complicate such a simple maxim.

Generally, “the finder of lost property can keep it against all the world… qualified by the question of where it was found,” says property law expert John Orth, a professor at the University of North Carolina. In the case of “John and Mary” (as they’re being called) and their California coins, the strongest factor in their favor is that they found the coins on their own property. Even if someone could prove that their great-great-grandfather buried those cans, there’s likely little the descendant could do if their grandfather sold that land to John and Mary’s family. “When you buy something, normally you get anything that’s been hidden in it,” says Orth, offering the example of a man who bought a used car for $600 and gets to keep $10,000 he finds in the trunk.

If John and Mary had found the coins while taking a walk on someone else’s property, the booty would likely go to that landowner. But what if someone stumbles across something valuable on public property? Say a San Franciscan strolling across the Golden Gate Bridge finds a bag containing $1 million in cash. In California, there is a law mandating that any found property valued over $100 be turned over to police. Authorities must then wait 90 days, advertise the lost property for a week, and finally release it to the person who found it if no one could prove ownership. Orth says it’s rare for cities or states to make any claim to found property, like the goods that metal-detector-wielding treasure hunters find on public beaches, unless it has some historical or archeological significance.

A legal distinction that often comes to bear is whether property is abandoned, lost or mislaid. Abandoned property is something forsaken by a previous owner, who has no intention of returning for it. Lost property, like an engagement ring accidentally dropped in the street, is something that is inadvertently, unknowingly left behind. And mislaid property is intentionally put somewhere—like money on a bank counter that a customer intends to deposit—but then forgotten. Mislaid property, Orth says, is supposed to be safeguarded by whoever owns the property where it was mislaid until someone with a better claim, like the bank customer, comes back. Abandoned property and lost property are more likely to be dealt with by the easy “finder-keepers” edict.

An Arizona case, in which a man died after having hidden $500,000 in ammunition cans in his walls, helps illustrate the distinction. The man’s daughters, knowing he had a penchant for stashing things away, searched the house after he died before selling it to new owners. Years later, the new owners hired a contractor to renovate the house and he discovered the cans, hidden behind a wall-mounted toaster oven. The new owners said the money should come with the house, that it had essentially been abandoned. But as soon as the heirs found out about the stash they staked their own claim. An appellate court determined in 2012 that the funds were mislaid—having been intentionally put there, not unintentionally lost or thrown away—and awarded the money to the daughters.

A different court could have come to a different conclusion, of course. And cases can get much more complicated, especially when more than two parties are staking a claim. If a diver off the Florida coast happens upon a sunken ship with a trunk full of galleons, for instance, that might yield a legal battle among the finder and the state, descendants of the ship’s owners and any insurance company that paid a claim when the ship went down. “These cases are a mess,” Orth says.

A key piece of common law when it comes to sunken ships might be the same that appears to matter in John and Mary’s case—what is known as “treasure trove.” This is a fourth category—beyond lost, abandoned or mislaid—that refers to any property that is verifiably antiquated and has been concealed for so long that the owner is probably dead or unknown and certainly unlikely to pop out of a grave and demand that his goods be returned. “The obvious fact that these coins had to have gone into the ground in the 1800s certainly helps their case,” says David McCarthy, a coin expert at the dealer that is working with John and Mary.

When someone stumbles upon treasure, the most important question is likely whether someone else has a better claim. In the case of John and Mary and their $10 million pot of gold, anyone else making a claim that trumps their property rights has “a high hurdle” to meet, says Armen Vartian, an attorney specializing in arts and collectible law in Manhattan Beach, Calif.

“When people are arguing over who has a superior claim, the guy who hasn’t pursued his claim is at a disadvantage,” he says, giving the example of someone who said his family had been meaning to come retrieve those eight cans for the last century but just didn’t get around to it. “You might have had a right at some point, but you lose it.”

   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2162 on: July 18, 2016, 03:38:23 PM »
Every state has laws requiring the return of money or property if it is possible to identify the owner. As a result, if you find a wallet full of cash and an ID, you cannot legally pocket the cash because the owner is recognizable. The same holds true for a bank envelope full of money (especially if it has a receipt in it), a purse, or even an abandoned vehicle. If the owner is not easily identified, most states still require that you contact local law enforcement and give the money to them for a period of time to allow the owner the opportunity to claim it. Should the rightful owner fail to surface after a certain period of time, every state's laws will allow the finder to take the money as his or her own. Doing otherwise is considered theft, and the reasoning should be obvious: everyone ever accused of theft would just claim that they found the stolen property if there was not this legal obligation to try to return lost things to their owners.

Is the rightful owners the bank, or the insurance company?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 03:39:29 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2163 on: July 18, 2016, 03:47:08 PM »
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Every state has laws requiring the return of money or property if it is possible to identify the owner. As a result, if you find a wallet full of cash and an ID, you cannot legally pocket the cash because the owner is recognizable. The same holds true for a bank envelope full of money (especially if it has a receipt in it), a purse, or even an abandoned vehicle. If the owner is not easily identified, most states still require that you contact local law enforcement and give the money to them for a period of time to allow the owner the opportunity to claim it. Should the rightful owner fail to surface after a certain period of time, every state's laws will allow the finder to take the money as his or her own. Doing otherwise is considered theft, and the reasoning should be obvious: everyone ever accused of theft would just claim that they found the stolen property if there was not this legal obligation to try to return lost things to their owners.

Is the rightful owners the bank, or the insurance company?

And the other question your quote raises...why do the Ingrams have any claim over the owners of Tina Bar?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2164 on: July 18, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
It should be like finding a wallet with ID in it...it's not yours to keep, it goes to its' rightful owner. I don't know what the laws are in Washington about this....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2165 on: July 18, 2016, 03:54:54 PM »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2166 on: July 18, 2016, 04:55:18 PM »
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What do you all think about Brian's father's History Channel account of the Tena bar money find? Credible?

377

I think Harold is lying through his teeth - about something. It all seemed to be triggered by "that hippie couple" and "drugs".  Fuentes picked up on it immediately and classified Harold's body language as 'getting ready to fight'.

I dont think Harold is capable of telling the "whole truth" at any time. He's hiding something. Harold's second performance on the beach was better but it still had all the traits of a made up story.

Brian is the one that let it slip the "stuggling family's" major concern in the beginning was getting a fat reward. A "$200,000" dollar reward? Was the reward offered by the FBI ever that high? I dont think so!! Brian says something about a "fat reward being dangled in front of a struggling family". ? Is Brian now saying they already knew there was a fat reward for Cooper money and Cooper evidence even before they found the money? That's not the original story they gave when this money was found. They told people they had found money at Tena Bar and "what can we do about it?". They asked for help and advice, at Dwanye's work, they called a bank, and they called the Sherriff's Dept before ever calling the FBI. It was the Sherriff's Dept who told them to call the FBI - this wasn't Harold's idea!

Is Brian saying that if they hadn't thought there was a reward they wouldn't have turned the money in at all or ever called the FBI ? They even called radio stations trying to pump up support for the FBI giving them a reward.

The original story is they didnt know what they had found. They intended to redeem the bills at a bank and they tried to clean the money up for that purpose. This somehow morphs into them suspecting they had found Cooper money with a $200,000 reward, before they even called the FBI, and when Harold calls the FBI he "pimps" the FBI by saying: "do these serial numbers mean anything to you?". Harold somehow already knew he might have Cooper money! Maybe the Sherriff's Dept had suggested it. But Brian is now saying they thought a fat reward was there to get!

In the HC interview Harold also lets it slip he had discovered Tena Bar before and thought it was a nice place to "hang out", I believe he says. A "place to hang out" ?  What? He likes hanging out with fish and raccoons on an isolated beach less accessible than other beaches and 4.7 miles away from Vancouver!? The family's original story is they had never been at Tena Bar before!

I mark Harold as self deluded dodger and an opportunist who circulates relying on gossip rumors to support his meager lifestyle. This family is a disadvantaged family that has always relied on their luck. I dont think the money was a plant at Tena Bar, based on the forensic evidence, but I do think it's entirely possible Harold or Pat had heard through the grapevine that somebody had seen or found money at Tena Bar, so Harold took the family out there to look for it! He may have encountered somebody in one of his visits to Tena Bar, who had seen pieces of money out there on the beachhead. He now admits it wasnt the first time he had been out there - which is brand new in his story. Agent DS says when he and fellow agents got to Tena Bar "a blind man could have followed the fragments up the beach where the Ingram money was found". And Harold now says he told Brian to "try over there"!

Is Brian now saying if there hadn't been "a reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family, they wouldnt have turned the money in at all ? I guess they would have gone with their original plan to go to a bank instead? And what reward being dangled out in front of a struggling family" ? Is Brian contending the reward being offered in the Cooper case had the Ingram family's name on it ... in 1971?  This is ridiculous, but it reveals how this family thinks and operates.

Harold says he wishes he had never found the money. That part may very well be true!   :))             

Georger,

Finding that money was a big deal.  Would you have expected the FBI to question the Ingrams extensively trying to find out exactly what you suggest?  For instance, "Why did you look there?".  "Did anyone else tell you there might be money there?".  Etc.  Etc.

If Harold had not thought it through thoroughly, I would think the FBI could get the full story out of them pretty quickly.

On the other hand, his trying to figure out what to do with the money is consistent with someone finding it unexpectedly.


That said, having an eight year old boy find it, as opposed to a hippy twenty something, would create more public support for getting to keep the money.

I think this has been discussed before, but if I remember my law course correctly a person finding property has more rights to it than anyone else in the world EXCEPT THE RIGHTFUL OWNER.  It seems to me the insurance company would be the rightful owner and entitled to all of it.

I dont know who the "rightful" owner is or was and I dont care - 

Should the FBI or LE have looked into the Ingram's - yes and they did to some extent. They discovered Harold had a warrant in New Mexico?

Harold's story matters very much. His story is important evidence in an important case, still open. Harold is the only person on Earth who ever came into contact somehow with the money Cooper had on his person.

Its not my fault if Harold's sole interest  was getting a "reward" or money. A lot of people would have higher priorities in their life!   :))  Harold is evidently disappointed in any event, and feels he was taken advantage of somehow. He says he wishes he had never discovered the Cooper money ... which is probably just one more exaggeration of the truth!  His claim is his son found the money out of the blue ... not Harold himself !!! If that is true Harold Ingram himself has no claim in this matter at all ... let Harold step aside with all of his bullshit for a change ... in favor of his son who is BRIAN INGRAM if Harold's stories are true.  :))

So, what is your interest in protecting Harold Ingram? It's his son who found the money, supposedly!



 

 


« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 05:04:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2167 on: July 18, 2016, 05:11:13 PM »
I vote that Dwayne Ingram is telling some version of the truth. I just wrote an email to 377 saying that I wouldn't trust Harold Dwayne Ingram to tell me the correct time of day. I find him to be a very slimy guy.

Nevertheless, I accept the basic premise that the Ingrams found the Cooper money on the beach. I don't think they were steered towards it, or had any prior knowledge. Yes, there are rumors of others finding shards a month of two before, but I don't give that scenario much weight, and I don't think HDI was on a scouting expedition looking for the money and finally found some on Feb 10, 1980.

On a related manner, I enjoyed Tom Fuentes analysis of HDI's body language, ie: taking the glasses off is a prelude to fighting. But I have no idea what HDI was going to fight about. I'm not even sure he would be able to tell us, either.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 05:13:24 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2168 on: July 18, 2016, 05:50:03 PM »
I'm not sure I follow this Ingram's thingy....most don't believe, or are totally against a plant, but feel the Ingram's are not being honest about finding the money? what else did they do if they did plant it, or were told where to find it?

wanting financial gain from it isn't out of the norm, so what are we saying?

I opened the voting and it appears we have someone who believes the money was planted.....hopefully more will cast votes... C:-)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 05:56:40 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2169 on: July 18, 2016, 06:02:19 PM »
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So, what is your interest in protecting Harold Ingram? It's his son who found the money, supposedly!



I don't have any interest in protecting Harold.  I was asking because you seemed to know a lot of the details about the money find and I was curious what you thought.  I'd heard details before that he was told where to look.  Someone who lived in that area told Grey Cop that and Dick Briggs allegedly said the same thing (Briggs died in 1980, so there is no way to ask him).

The rest was my curiosity about why Brian had any claim to the money at all.  I would have thought the insurance company first, and then Fazio brothers since they own the land would be next.
 

Offline brbducksfan

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2170 on: July 18, 2016, 06:31:38 PM »
Hello all,

Great forum.  As a ‘rookie’ to this forum, I’ve got lots of questions.  For now, I’ll focus on the Tena Bar $ find.

First Q: It seems the prevailing opinion is against the $ being planted...why?

From what I've read thus far, the only way I can see the $ ending up at Tena Bar is if 1) the FBI flight path analysis is wrong and Cooper jumped somewhere very near Tena Bar; or 2) the FBI flight path analysis is wrong and Cooper jumped / died somewhere in the Washauga drainway (as Himmelsbach speculated).  The flight plan analysis that the ‘Citizen Sleuths’ did looks credible to me (e.g., the plane +/- followed Vector 23). 

Thus, if the Vector 23 flight path is accurate, given the direction of the river current, how is it physically possible for the $ to turn up at Tena Bar without ‘after the fact’ human intervention?

Q2: I’ve read through multiple sources that the rubber bands on the $ were present when they found the $ at Tena Bar – wouldn’t they be deteriorated after 9 years in the ‘wild’?

Comment: I’ve read Colbert’s book.  While I’m not sold on his Rackstraw theory, the History Channel did kind of gloss over a lot of his stuff.  Specific to Tena Bar, the former drug runner that claimed to be at the party with Briggs and the Ingrams’ before they discovered the $ passed a polygraph test.  To me, Ingram looked like he recognized the drug runner when they showed him the video.

 

Offline Olemisscub

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2171 on: July 18, 2016, 07:38:15 PM »
The Washougal is upstream from Tena Bar, which means that the money most certainly could have made its way naturally to the sandbar. If the money did indeed get there naturally, then that all but rules out DB jumping near Merwin/Lewis River.

Or am I completely wrong on that?
 

Offline brbducksfan

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2172 on: July 18, 2016, 07:44:31 PM »
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The Washougal is upstream from Tena Bar, which means that the money most certainly could have made its way naturally to the sandbar. If the money did indeed get there naturally, then that all but rules out DB jumping near Merwin/Lewis River.

Or am I completely wrong on that?

Yes, if Cooper crashed in the upstream Washougal, the $ in theory could've made it to Tena Bar.  For Cooper crash @ Washougal though, the flight path would've had to been way off.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2173 on: July 18, 2016, 07:56:01 PM »
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The Washougal is upstream from Tena Bar, which means that the money most certainly could have made its way naturally to the sandbar. If the money did indeed get there naturally, then that all but rules out DB jumping near Merwin/Lewis River.

Or am I completely wrong on that?

Yes, if Cooper crashed in the upstream Washougal, the $ in theory could've made it to Tena Bar.  For Cooper crash @ Washougal though, the flight path would've had to been way off.

How did the money get off the bottom of the river?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2174 on: July 18, 2016, 08:14:55 PM »
Quote
Comment: I’ve read Colbert’s book.  While I’m not sold on his Rackstraw theory, the History Channel did kind of gloss over a lot of his stuff.  Specific to Tena Bar, the former drug runner that claimed to be at the party with Briggs and the Ingrams’ before they discovered the $ passed a polygraph test.  To me, Ingram looked like he recognized the drug runner when they showed him the video.


A lot of this sounds to me like they have spoken with Grey Cop. he told me a similar story years ago about the Ingram's, and the guy across the street from him. he also claims the FBI took a picture of Cooper looking out the rear stairs, and said that Cooper (Kenny Christiansen) wore spring loaded boots making him taller than he was? he is now claiming, and writing another book that Kenny Christiansen was also the Zodiac killer. I can't remember all of his ramblings, but he had many. he also claims Kenny was the author of the book HaHa. he started the rumor of Cooper putting his name, or the name Dan Cooper on the ticket. he told me this was confirmed by watching one of the shows about Cooper, unsolved, or In Search Of....

These are reasons I'm so skeptical about things. these myths start spreading like wild fire....
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 08:15:46 PM by Shutter »