Author Topic: The Cooper Vortex Podcast  (Read 34004 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #345 on: November 25, 2021, 12:36:09 AM »
So, I just finished reading Dr. Edward's book, and I thought I'd share my immediate thoughts on it. I am sure there will be much more to discuss later on.

First, the book is a masterpiece. If Bruce Smith's book is the "bible" of DB Cooper, then Dr. Edward's book is the writings of St. Augustine or Martin Luther. It strips away all personal narratives, suspect discussion, and conspiracy theories and creates an exhaustively researched book on the facts and data points of the DB Cooper case. It is unlike any book on Cooper. I am in academia, so I enjoyed the dense and evidence-based nature of the book. While some of the math in the book caused my eyes to glaze over, the rest of the book was a fascinating, unbiased recitation of the truths of DB Cooper.

That said, this book is not without hypotheses of its own. These conclusions will likely not sit well with a large number of occupants within the Vortex. I hope Dr. Edwards is prepared to vociferously defend his book because there are people who will view it as a frontal attack on the theories and ideas that they desperately cling to. I know this because I share many of Dr. Edward's theories and have shared them within the Vortex. I myself have been roundly criticized by some for these iconoclastic ideas. Truth is, this book I would have written about DB Cooper if I was capable of doing so. Bravo to Dr. Edwards for actually doing it.

For example, I have stated that I believe the "oscillations" and "pressure bump" are two different, but related things, and that the FBI along with many private researchers have confused and conflated these terms for decades. Dr. Edwards agrees. Dr. Edwards believes that the jump time is wrong and as a result, the drop zone was too far north. I storngly agree. Dr. Edwards believes that the timing of the flight path is off by four or five minutes. I hypothesized this same thing, and emailed Shutter about this idea earlier in the year. Unfortunately, I was unable to make it work. Dr. Edwards does, and he provides compelling evidence to support his assertion. I wish I had spoken to Dr. Edwards prior to the publication of his book because we are very like-minded in regards to DB Cooper. The difference is that Dr. Edwards has put in the time and effort to back up his conclusions with evidence directly from the FBI files along with science and mathematics.

As with any publication, it is not without its flaws and holes. For one, I think that Dr. Edwards could have provided a better explanation for contradicting the times associated with the plots on the FBI map. I also think his suggestion that the airstairs were locked in a down position is incorrect, and his hypothesis that Cooper raised and lowered the stairs manually rather than them "floating" is also lacking in convincing evidence. Also, despite citing Tom Kaye extensively, Dr. Edwards' scenarios for the jump result in Cooper ending up in the Columbia that night - something that the diatom research makes highly improbable.

There are other smaller errors such as confusing Minneapolis and Minnesota - something that could be easily explained by him not being a native of the United States.

There is also a rather MASSIVE blockbuster revelation that I believe requires further explanation from all parties involved. In his discussion of the tie particles, Dr. Edwards states:

"The Citizen Sleuths website describes the source as titanium metal; however, our communications with Mr. Kaye indicate that the particles were titanium oxide, a widely used component of food coloring, paints and pigments, and sunscreen."

"Titanium, which at one time suggested an exposure of the tie to an environment within the aerospace industry, eventually appeared to be no more than a marker for, most probably, paints and pigments."


Does this mean that Tom Kaye had now disregarded the commercially pure titanium? Is that entire line of inquiry now DOA? Inquiring minds want to know.

So, the bottom line is that this is a marvelous book that everyone interested in DB Cooper should read. Dr. Edwards should be very proud of himself while also girding himself for the slings and arrows that come with challenging many of the long-held beliefs of the Vortex.

Well done, and good luck.
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #346 on: November 25, 2021, 01:30:36 AM »
Titanium dioxide was excluded by looking at the oxygen in it's spectra

Titanium dioxide, also known as titanium oxide is the inorganic compound with the chemical formula TiO2.

with regards to excluding it:
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Sticky carbon tape on stubs were used to lift samples from the tie (Fig. 2) and Fig. 2 Circles represent sample sites where sticky tape was used.were examined under the scanning electron microscope (SEM). Several metallic particles were discovered and submitted to energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDS) which gives information about all the elements present in the particle down to approximately 1% abundance (Fig. 1).

Titanium dioxide is a common relative of titanium metal but under EDS, titanium dioxide shows an abundance of oxygen where the metal does not. High-resolution spectra were recorded for the particles that showed either no oxygen or orders of magnitude less than expected. Additional confirmation was done through sampling known titanium dioxide standards in the same instruments and comparing them to the particle spectra.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #347 on: November 25, 2021, 01:32:11 AM »
Is there any new information in the Edwards' book?

Or is just re-jiggering existing information (tossing out some as wrong/misinterpreted, etc...deciding some are more likely "fact" than others that are deemed to be "non-fact")

i.e. is there any "new evidence" or ?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 01:33:15 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #348 on: November 25, 2021, 01:38:47 AM »

"Titanium, which at one time suggested an exposure of the tie to an environment within the aerospace industry, eventually appeared to be no more than a marker for, most probably, paints and pigments."

Is he talking about titanium dioxide here? what is he talking about and where is the reference for such info?
If it's from Tom Kaye, where is it on Tom's site?

Edwards sounds way off base here. Even the wording of the sentence is misleading. "eventually appeared" ??

Is he trying to reduce Tom's work to a sound bite? Was there new work? What the heck is he saying

I think he's trying to act like he has new info when he seems to have misunderstood something.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #349 on: November 25, 2021, 01:39:52 AM »
Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #350 on: November 25, 2021, 01:42:14 AM »
Edwards is creating his own confusion.
He's mixed up about the Ti and this:

Edwards is talking about the Lycopodium powder and titanium dioxide.

From Tom's site:
Many Lycopodium spores appeared to be covered with an residue of small round particles that are a common feature of the surface texture in Impatiens pollen (Fig. 3). Once their identification as Lycopodium was determined, the ornamentation was out of place, and subsequent EDS analysis showed that the ornamentation was in fact a powder residue made up of titanium dioxide, silicates and alumina. These materials are typically used for pill coatings [2]. This powder suggests that Cooper would have probably been taking some form of pill on a regular basis.

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« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 01:43:08 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #351 on: November 25, 2021, 01:44:15 AM »
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

Why does Edwards have to interpret Tom's mind? Tom owes Edwards nothing.
Edwards' is the one who is the random ranter re-writing Tom's writing.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #352 on: November 25, 2021, 01:47:20 AM »
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

It's just a biased look that says certain stuff has more weight than other stuff. Just like everyone's opinion.

He doesn't seem to have done anything that guarantees his weighting is more valid than another reasonable weighting?

I can't get past the relatively simple jump to "Korean War loadmaster" ....seems like he has a small view of the world and the humans in it.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #353 on: November 25, 2021, 01:47:52 AM »
He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.
 

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #354 on: November 25, 2021, 01:48:38 AM »
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

It's just a biased look that says certain stuff has more weight than other stuff. Just like everyone's opinion.

He doesn't seem to have done anything that guarantees his weighting is more valid than another reasonable weighting?

I can't get past the relatively simple jump to "Korean War loadmaster" ....seems like he has a small view of the world and the humans in it.
All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #355 on: November 25, 2021, 01:48:53 AM »
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He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.

If it was major...Tom was at the forum this year.
What did Tom say about his "changed mind" at the forum regarding Ti?
Surely something this monumental would have come from the guy who did the work?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #356 on: November 25, 2021, 01:50:16 AM »
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #357 on: November 25, 2021, 01:50:45 AM »
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He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.

If it was major...Tom was at the forum this year.
What did Tom say about his "changed mind" at the forum regarding Ti?
Surely something this monumental would have come from the guy who did the work?
I agree. That’s why I mentioned it specifically.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #358 on: November 25, 2021, 01:51:06 AM »
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #359 on: November 25, 2021, 01:53:18 AM »
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok


no really. You guys are suckered in by the PhD and the writing style and him saying what you want to hear (that everyone is reading/interpreting English documents wrong)

That's comforting.

It's more discomforting to say "Read all the damn docs you want, and you still won't get close to who Cooper was"

Sure you can write a book about the docs, but that doesn't mean you're writing about Cooper.
This ain't a math theorem.
 
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