Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 1318455 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4815 on: November 09, 2021, 02:28:51 PM »
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About 8 minutes in, Darren says something like "When the Treasury destroys bills, do they keep track of the serial numbers?"  The guest says this exactly "To be honest I don't know. I would assume they do."  He doesn't know?? He assumes??

Darren says "You can't be sure they recorded every number?"  The guest says it would be counterproductive and a waste of taxpayer money.  He also says that before scanning "I can't see them doing every one"
I've discussed this already. Darren later followed up with him and he said that they did not begin the practice of recording the serial numbers until the 1990s. My source says otherwise.

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At 10:30 Darren asks "Could he have spent the money?"  The guest responds with "He probably could have" then at 11:11 he says "yes he certainly could have spent them"
The question is not if he could have spent the money. Of course he could have SPENT the money. The question is "Would some of those notes have been identified in circulation over the last 50 years." Friedberg repeatedly says no which you conveniently leave out of your excerpts.

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At 13:13 Darren asks "Do you think his money was spent in the United States?"  The guest responds with "I have no opinion on that at all, I just don't know"
So? How can anyone know the answer to this question? Do you know if Cooper spent his money in the United States?

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The guest can't explain how the bills would have been found in circulation.
Actually, he offers a few explanations of which I have already stated and you have ignored.

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He believes he died.

No, he merely thinks that the rest of the money ended up with the same fate as the Tena Bar money. He states that he has no opinion on the case.

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Cooper would have been an idiot to go somewhere and spend a huge stack of $20's.
What makes you qualified to discuss Cooper's IQ? What Cooper would do with the money after the hijacking is pure speculation.

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He said there was no buzz in the collector's world about the money until the Ingram find.  So collectors probably were not looking for these bills in 1971-72.
You are assuming that the FBI and collectors were the only people who would be looking for Cooper bills?

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At 28 minutes in Darren talks to him about the money find and the guest is not too sure about that part of the case. Wouldn't that be important?
Why? The central question is "If DBC spent the money, would we have identified some of it in circulation over the last 50 years. How would the money find be relevant to that question?

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You obviously have not read my posts though.
I read everyone's posts.

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Total $20s in circulation for 1963A were 821 million notes, and for 1969 it was 607 million.

Why include notes that weren't involved in the Cooper loot? The majority of the Cooper money was for the San Francisco District which is a far smaller amount than the billion overall. Do you use the word "billion" because it makes the task of locating the Cooper money appear even more difficult - even if that number is inaccurate?

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I don't ignore expert opinion in favor of my own.  I listen to opinions, facts, etc.  This guest is an expert in money, but he was unconvincing in explaining how Cooper's money would have been found.
Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I disagree.

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Your argument is flawed.
What argument are you referring to?

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You try to discredit me by saying I don't listen to experts,
I'm not trying to "discredit" anyone. I'm merely pointing out that an expert said "ABC", and you are saying "No, XYZ".

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and you say because an expert said "this happened" then it must be true.
No, I'm saying that I personally give more gravity to an expert opinion than a layman's opinion. I don't see that as a controversial take.

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He's an expert on money, but can't confirm if the serial numbers were recorded.
You are intent on using his lack of knowledge of this minute detail to dismiss all of his expertise. Weird.

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So his opinion is not inconvenient for my theory, and I don't need to change my theory. 
Well, you clearly disagree with his conclusions, and my opinions on the matter seem to be triggering to you. One would assume that they are impediments to your theory. Otherwise, why would you be so defensive?

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He's simply not able to convince us that the money was not spent.
Who is "us"?

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He convinces you apparently.
He does.

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There are 32 minutes in the podcast, here is the link -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yaKjWFq0ss-  I recommend people listen to it.  If you are short on time, just listen from 8 minutes to 10 minutes in.
I would actually encourage people to listen to it in its entirety.

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So now you are 50/50 that Cooper lived or died right?  That's what you're saying?
He either died in the jump or he didn't. I'm not aware of any other options, are you?

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I started thinking Cooper could not have spent the money, then over time I changed my mind.  Should I change it back now?
If you are presented with evidence that compels you to change your mind, sure. You are entitled to change your mind about things as often as you like.

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That's what  a good investigator does?
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
 -- Paul Samuelson

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I'm not going to pile on you anymore than people already have.
There's no "piling on". We have a difference of opinion about the DB Cooper case, that's all. We aren't in the Situation Room.

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No need for the "cheers", we aren't drinking buddies.
Indeed, and thank God for that. My drinking buddies are a lot more fun than you seem to be.  :chr2:
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 02:42:17 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4816 on: November 09, 2021, 03:49:10 PM »
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About 8 minutes in, Darren says something like "When the Treasury destroys bills, do they keep track of the serial numbers?"  The guest says this exactly "To be honest I don't know. I would assume they do."  He doesn't know?? He assumes??

Darren says "You can't be sure they recorded every number?"  The guest says it would be counterproductive and a waste of taxpayer money.  He also says that before scanning "I can't see them doing every one"
I've discussed this already. Darren later followed up with him and he said that they did not begin the practice of recording the serial numbers until the 1990s. My source says otherwise.

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At 10:30 Darren asks "Could he have spent the money?"  The guest responds with "He probably could have" then at 11:11 he says "yes he certainly could have spent them"
The question is not if he could have spent the money. Of course he could have SPENT the money. The question is "Would some of those notes have been identified in circulation over the last 50 years." Friedberg repeatedly says no which you conveniently leave out of your excerpts.

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At 13:13 Darren asks "Do you think his money was spent in the United States?"  The guest responds with "I have no opinion on that at all, I just don't know"
So? How can anyone know the answer to this question? Do you know if Cooper spent his money in the United States?

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The guest can't explain how the bills would have been found in circulation.
Actually, he offers a few explanations of which I have already stated and you have ignored.

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He believes he died.

No, he merely thinks that the rest of the money ended up with the same fate as the Tena Bar money. He states that he has no opinion on the case.

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Cooper would have been an idiot to go somewhere and spend a huge stack of $20's.
What makes you qualified to discuss Cooper's IQ? What Cooper would do with the money after the hijacking is pure speculation.

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He said there was no buzz in the collector's world about the money until the Ingram find.  So collectors probably were not looking for these bills in 1971-72.
You are assuming that the FBI and collectors were the only people who would be looking for Cooper bills?

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At 28 minutes in Darren talks to him about the money find and the guest is not too sure about that part of the case. Wouldn't that be important?
Why? The central question is "If DBC spent the money, would we have identified some of it in circulation over the last 50 years. How would the money find be relevant to that question?

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You obviously have not read my posts though.
I read everyone's posts.

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Total $20s in circulation for 1963A were 821 million notes, and for 1969 it was 607 million.

Why include notes that weren't involved in the Cooper loot? The majority of the Cooper money was for the San Francisco District which is a far smaller amount than the billion overall. Do you use the word "billion" because it makes the task of locating the Cooper money appear even more difficult - even if that number is inaccurate?

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I don't ignore expert opinion in favor of my own.  I listen to opinions, facts, etc.  This guest is an expert in money, but he was unconvincing in explaining how Cooper's money would have been found.
Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I disagree.

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Your argument is flawed.
What argument are you referring to?

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You try to discredit me by saying I don't listen to experts,
I'm not trying to "discredit" anyone. I'm merely pointing out that an expert said "ABC", and you are saying "No, XYZ".

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and you say because an expert said "this happened" then it must be true.
No, I'm saying that I personally give more gravity to an expert opinion than a layman's opinion. I don't see that as a controversial take.

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He's an expert on money, but can't confirm if the serial numbers were recorded.
You are intent on using his lack of knowledge of this minute detail to dismiss all of his expertise. Weird.

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So his opinion is not inconvenient for my theory, and I don't need to change my theory. 
Well, you clearly disagree with his conclusions, and my opinions on the matter seem to be triggering to you. One would assume that they are impediments to your theory. Otherwise, why would you be so defensive?

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He's simply not able to convince us that the money was not spent.
Who is "us"?

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He convinces you apparently.
He does.

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There are 32 minutes in the podcast, here is the link -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yaKjWFq0ss-  I recommend people listen to it.  If you are short on time, just listen from 8 minutes to 10 minutes in.
I would actually encourage people to listen to it in its entirety.

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So now you are 50/50 that Cooper lived or died right?  That's what you're saying?
He either died in the jump or he didn't. I'm not aware of any other options, are you?

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I started thinking Cooper could not have spent the money, then over time I changed my mind.  Should I change it back now?
If you are presented with evidence that compels you to change your mind, sure. You are entitled to change your mind about things as often as you like.

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That's what  a good investigator does?
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
 -- Paul Samuelson

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I'm not going to pile on you anymore than people already have.
There's no "piling on". We have a difference of opinion about the DB Cooper case, that's all. We aren't in the Situation Room.

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No need for the "cheers", we aren't drinking buddies.
Indeed, and thank God for that. My drinking buddies are a lot more fun than you seem to be.  :chr2:

Here is 1969 total notes printed -http://www.uspapermoney.info/serials/f1969_v.html-  lower left corner.  Upper right corner you can click on the 1963A.  I'll consider this person to be an expert, or at least much more knowledgeable than me.  It might even be the same guy on the podcast.

I'm not going to take the time to quote every passage of a reply like you do.  I'll hit the main points.  Yes, a billion notes in circulation makes it much harder to search, assuming there is not a focus.  It's a big undertaking that could easily have resulted in people saying "forget it."

Lived or died.  No s**t those are the only options.  You have been pushing that DB Cooper died, there is no denying that.  You've discussed that many times.  You even asked Martin Andrade what the probability was that he lived.  Martin says around 80 something percent.  So what is your probability that he lived or died, is it now 50-50?  Just answer the question and don't beat around the bush.

Ok, so you and the podcast guest say if he spent the money, it would have been found?  Am I reading that correctly or hearing that correctly?  Yes/No will work.

Cooper dying definitely affects my feelings on the case.  Right now I see more telling me that he lived.  As for spending the money, that does not affect my "theories."  I'm leaning towards him not spending much of it.  However, I do think he easily could have spent some of it.  But at the time with the information he had, he may not have risked it.  Your theory is the one that you seem to be clinging to.

Cooper's IQ? Yes, I am speculating on his intelligence, and his knowledge.  He pulled off a daring hijacking, and probably planned a good amount.  I've met some stupid people and some ignorant people and some people with minimal knowledge.  I think Cooper was above average in intelligence, and knowledge.

Who is your source that says the US government would have checked all the serial numbers during destruction of the money?

You aren't just disagreeing, you're disrespectful to quite a few people on here.  I guess I'm late to the party on seeing that in you.  So yea, I'm not going to pile on.  I'm just not going to engage with you.  You have 786 posts on here since April of 2020.  From what I can tell you think he died, you talk about the jump time with oscillations, and now you talk about him not spending the money because he would be caught.  I guess I'll have to get my fix on those topics from others besides you.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 03:51:08 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4817 on: November 09, 2021, 04:51:36 PM »
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Yes, a billion notes in circulation makes it much harder to search, assuming there is not a focus.  It's a big undertaking that could easily have resulted in people saying "forget it."
Fine, but it wasn't a billion notes.

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You have been pushing that DB Cooper died, there is no denying that.
I will deny it. I haven't pushed anything.  At one point, I believed he more than likely that he did not survived the jump, but my thoughts have evolved. What I have done and will continue to do is push back against the idea that the jump was easy and that he absolutely 100% survived. The possibility exists that he perished. 

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Martin says around 80 something percent.
82% by Martin's most recent statements.

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So what is your probability that he lived or died, is it now 50-50? 
I don't know. I leave open the possiblity for both outcomes. What I do feel strongly is that if he did not die in the jump, then he lost the money in the jump. At the end of the day, he either lived or died; therefore, it's 50/50.

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Ok, so you and the podcast guest say if he spent the money, it would have been found?  Am I reading that correctly or hearing that correctly?  Yes/No will work.
It's not a yes or no question. I think it is highly probable that if he spent the money it would have shown up by now. Now, let me turn the tables on you. Those who believe Cooper survived the jump like to say, "If he died, why haven't we found a body." So let me use the same logic on you. If he spent the money, where is it? Why haven't any Cooper bills turned up other than the ones on Tena Bar? You seem confident that he spent the money. Where is your proof? Show me one shred of evidence that he spent the money.

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Cooper dying definitely affects my feelings on the case.  Right now I see more telling me that he lived.
And you're entitled to have that opinion. You're the one who began attacking my position, not vice versa.
   
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As for spending the money, that does not affect my "theories."
Then why are you so antagonistic towards me regarding my feelings that he didn't spend it?

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I'm leaning towards him not spending much of it.  However, I do think he easily could have spent some of it.
Fine. Prove it. Show me a Cooper bill in the wild. Why haven't we found one yet? I am leaning on the opinion of an expert - someone who knows more than me about a particular topic. What are you leaning on besides your gut feeling?

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Your theory is the one that you seem to be clinging to.
I don't even know what this means? I'm not allowed to disagree with you?

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Cooper's IQ? Yes, I am speculating on his intelligence, and his knowledge.  He pulled off a daring hijacking, and probably planned a good amount.  I've met some stupid people and some ignorant people and some people with minimal knowledge.  I think Cooper was above average in intelligence, and knowledge.
You're allowed to speculate. Speculate away. But when it comes down to a decision to speculate or trust the opinion of an expert, I will choose the expert.

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You aren't just disagreeing, you're disrespectful to quite a few people on here.
You're the one who called me out and when I attempted to have a respectful dialogue with you, but you resorted to a crack about being drinking buddies. If anyone is being disrespectful, it's you. I'm happy to discuss things with anyone here, but if I get disrespected or insulted, you damn well better know I'm going to respond.

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From what I can tell you think he died, you talk about the jump time with oscillations, and now you talk about him not spending the money because he would be caught.  I guess I'll have to get my fix on those topics from others besides you.
Very brave of you to only engage people who you agree with. Let me know when you find some of those Cooper bills.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 04:55:42 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline Lynn

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4818 on: November 09, 2021, 05:00:06 PM »
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I would have to give the episode a re-listen but I’m fairly certain he touched on the scenarios you mention.

The point is that the odds for that many 20s to enter circulation and not be flagged for 50 years would be infinitesimally small. The most logical conclusion to draw would be that the money was never spent.
How many days did it take before the serial numbers were released? He could have gotten into Canada and exchanged the money very quickly, though I would imagine the US agents would have looked into that? (I don't know for a fact they did, can't recall reading anything related to it.) I can tell you that in my entire 5+ decades I've never had a bill checked for counterfeiting, let alone serial numbers, except possibly without my knowledge in a bank, and don't offhand know anyone who has, though a couple of people got burned on easy-to-spot Canadian bills before the new, would need a 3D printer to even get close bills. If you were keeping your cash anywhere other than a bank, I think the chances of anyone in Canada ever checking a US 20 for DB Cooper serial numbers would be incredibly tiny. I'd do it now if a US 20 from 1971 crossed my path, but only learned that much detail about the case a few years ago; most ppl would know far less and sure as hell would have just considered the US 20 a bit of a windfall, as for most of that period the CAD was below the US dollar. There were a couple of times we were at or above par, but usually if you're getting a US 20, you're making money in Canada. I don't know about in the US, but the 20 here is the bill I see the most often, especially since the rise of ATMs as many didn't/don't let you take out less than 20.
 

Offline David

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4819 on: November 10, 2021, 09:12:06 AM »
I’m surprised the question around detecting Cooper money hasn’t been established.  The Fed either checked currency numbers at that time or they didn’t.  This shouldn’t be a matter of opinion.  It’s a fact and it sounds like nobody has determined that fact.

Likewise, the method of detection if the money left the country has not been established.

I’d be interested to know how frequently stolen money was identified in other cases at that time. 
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4820 on: November 10, 2021, 10:05:46 AM »
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I’m surprised the question around detecting Cooper money hasn’t been established.  The Fed either checked currency numbers at that time or they didn’t.  This shouldn’t be a matter of opinion.  It’s a fact and it sounds like nobody has determined that fact.

Likewise, the method of detection if the money left the country has not been established.

I’d be interested to know how frequently stolen money was identified in other cases at that time.

In my readings of the 302s, there is a lot of action around getting the money serial numbers list sent to banks, and to the public via various methods.  But what I didn't really see much of yet was any reporting or documenting of actual processes put into place by banks, casinos, or other institutions to search incoming $20 bills for a match.   It seems like they just made the list available to them, and then it was kind of a best effort or totally up to the institutions to implement a policy or procedure with their staff or throw it in the garbage.  It would be difficult to expect that thousands of money changing institutions would all have the discipline to implement a process like this.

A better place to do so, as some have questioned here in the recent posts above, would be to implement the process further down stream at a choke point. That would seem to be where old money is destroyed -- I believe the Federal Reserve has the task of shredding or destroying old money. 

Did they have a process in place for documenting serial numbers that come in at that time ?  ever ?  now ?
Did the FBI attempt to put a request in to the Federal Reserve to search for these bills ?  Or even beyond the Cooper case as it could be useful for other crimes where specific money needs to be found ?

I haven't come across anything in the 302s regarding this....it doesn't mean it's not there, I just haven't seen it in my limited time reading through them, not sure if anyone else has...


 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4821 on: November 10, 2021, 03:14:05 PM »
Well what have you all not covered on this?  Anyway, this show thats on YouTube, I guess the guy sitting across from Cooper kept wondering whey the stewardess's were paying so much attention to Cooper and not him?  So he got a very good look at him and said he had a "Turkey neck", IE, sagging chin.  Well he was no Thanksgiving Turkey.  This guy who goes through off the the suspects has Sheridan at number 2 but his top guy is Braden.  I have not heard much about Braden?  What do you  all think of him? 
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4822 on: November 10, 2021, 03:26:28 PM »
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Well what have you all not covered on this?  Anyway, this show thats on YouTube, I guess the guy sitting across from Cooper kept wondering whey the stewardess's were paying so much attention to Cooper and not him?  So he got a very good look at him and said he had a "Turkey neck", IE, sagging chin.  Well he was no Thanksgiving Turkey.  This guy who goes through off the the suspects has Sheridan at number 2 but his top guy is Braden.  I have not heard much about Braden?  What do you  all think of him?

He has the skill set and fits one of the main hypothesized profiles in terms of military, Vietnam, special forces, alpha male type etc.....I think one of the knocks is his height, was maybe 5'8" if not mistaken.  Not sure if you are referring to Drew Beeson, but he is one of the Ted Braden advocates.  If you haven't looked him up, he did an episode with Darren on the Cooper Vortex and he also has done at least 3 easy to find Youtube videos....
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4823 on: November 10, 2021, 05:35:41 PM »
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Well what have you all not covered on this?  Anyway, this show thats on YouTube, I guess the guy sitting across from Cooper kept wondering whey the stewardess's were paying so much attention to Cooper and not him?  So he got a very good look at him and said he had a "Turkey neck", IE, sagging chin.  Well he was no Thanksgiving Turkey.  This guy who goes through off the the suspects has Sheridan at number 2 but his top guy is Braden.  I have not heard much about Braden?  What do you  all think of him?

Can you post a link to this video that you speak of? Thanks.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4824 on: November 11, 2021, 09:31:09 AM »
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Well what have you all not covered on this?  Anyway, this show thats on YouTube, I guess the guy sitting across from Cooper kept wondering whey the stewardess's were paying so much attention to Cooper and not him?  So he got a very good look at him and said he had a "Turkey neck", IE, sagging chin.  Well he was no Thanksgiving Turkey.  This guy who goes through off the the suspects has Sheridan at number 2 but his top guy is Braden.  I have not heard much about Braden?  What do you  all think of him?

Can you post a link to this video that you speak of? Thanks.






SIGN IN




0:28 / 31:28







SIGN IN




0:28 / 31:28


Hope that works?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4825 on: November 11, 2021, 09:36:17 AM »
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Well what have you all not covered on this?  Anyway, this show thats on YouTube, I guess the guy sitting across from Cooper kept wondering whey the stewardess's were paying so much attention to Cooper and not him?  So he got a very good look at him and said he had a "Turkey neck", IE, sagging chin.  Well he was no Thanksgiving Turkey.  This guy who goes through off the the suspects has Sheridan at number 2 but his top guy is Braden.  I have not heard much about Braden?  What do you  all think of him?

Can you post a link to this video that you speak of? Thanks.






SIGN IN




0:28 / 31:28







SIGN IN




0:28 / 31:28


Hope that works?

Its titled DB Cooper-Part 2-Vietnam-MAC V SOG-DB Cooper Found-Ted Braden-Norjack

Drew Beeson does a two part episode detailing why he believes Braden is his strongest suspect.  He admits, he cannot put him on the plane just like any of the other suspects, thus, still the great mystery.  I must add that I have far more faith in the testimony of Tina Mucklow than that of Flo Shafner based on all I have come across.  Flo is all over the place.  She also states on one of the shows she did that the sketch's look nothing like him.  So why does the FBI have so much faith in them?  Probably trust Tina more. But not sure if Tina ever saw him without the sunglass's,   Only Flo did.  God help us.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4826 on: November 19, 2021, 03:38:47 PM »
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Comparing DB Cooper and Forrest Fenn worth a look
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4827 on: November 20, 2021, 12:41:59 PM »
Did you realize this Cobert guy that is mentioned here often, him and his team have cracked the Zodiac case in California that goes back to the 60s.  The famous case has been cracked in such compelling fashion the cops have even admitted its "irrefutable" evidence.  I guess this guy named Poste they believe was the killer.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4828 on: November 20, 2021, 02:09:18 PM »
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Did you realize this Cobert guy that is mentioned here often, him and his team have cracked the Zodiac case in California that goes back to the 60s.  The famous case has been cracked in such compelling fashion the cops have even admitted its "irrefutable" evidence.  I guess this guy named Poste they believe was the killer.

Got any news about the Loch Ness monster or Pony Tony? 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4829 on: November 20, 2021, 03:04:54 PM »
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Did you realize this Cobert guy that is mentioned here often, him and his team have cracked the Zodiac case in California that goes back to the 60s.  The famous case has been cracked in such compelling fashion the cops have even admitted its "irrefutable" evidence.  I guess this guy named Poste they believe was the killer.
They have not cracked the Zodiac case.

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