Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 921874 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8130 on: July 14, 2021, 04:29:55 AM »
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In reality, the 727 could takeoff with the stairs down if they were not locked down.  If they were locked down, the aircraft would have to crush them to rotate to a takeoff attitude.   


That's an interesting thought. Supposedly the 727, with the weight of the 3 engines in the back, was prone to tipping back, and the stairs were rigid enough to prevent that from happening while passengers loaded. So, do you think the plane would be able to 'crush' them on takeoff, or would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation?


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...a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.


General info... A box type, cargo, skyvan type aircraft with a tailgate door, the main part of the door is hinged at the top rear and opens upward and inward to the ceiling of the aircraft, so it is never exposed to the slipstream, or wind outside. There is a smaller section that drops down. On the ground it might serve as a ramp, in flight it just drops flat to the floor. They are designed to be able to open in flight. Most people with military experience are likely aware of that.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 04:39:46 AM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8131 on: July 14, 2021, 01:38:24 PM »
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In reality, the 727 could takeoff with the stairs down if they were not locked down.  If they were locked down, the aircraft would have to crush them to rotate to a takeoff attitude.   


That's an interesting thought. Supposedly the 727, with the weight of the 3 engines in the back, was prone to tipping back, and the stairs were rigid enough to prevent that from happening while passengers loaded. So, do you think the plane would be able to 'crush' them on takeoff, or would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation?


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...a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.


General info... A box type, cargo, skyvan type aircraft with a tailgate door, the main part of the door is hinged at the top rear and opens upward and inward to the ceiling of the aircraft, so it is never exposed to the slipstream, or wind outside. There is a smaller section that drops down. On the ground it might serve as a ramp, in flight it just drops flat to the floor. They are designed to be able to open in flight. Most people with military experience are likely aware of that.

I doubt if the 727 was prone to tipping back except under very unusual circumstances.  Admittedly, Shutter has posted a picture of a 727 tipping back while parked at what appeared to be a maintenance facility.

Tipping back was fairly routine on WW2 type propeller transport aircraft such as the DC-4.  Aircraft such as that with a straight wing had a metal bar that a crew member would place under the rear part of the fuselage during loading and unloading. 

This was due to the center-of-gravity for straight wing aircraft being relatively far forward with respect to the passenger/cargo/fuel tank areas.  With swept wing aircraft, the center-of-gravity is much further to the rear and tilting is not normally a problem. 

 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8132 on: July 14, 2021, 01:46:41 PM »
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Is RMB cashing in his chips over at DZ?

RMB has replied to my inquiry over at DZ with two lengthy posts and comments on a number of subjects.
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8133 on: July 14, 2021, 03:35:05 PM »
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In reality, the 727 could takeoff with the stairs down if they were not locked down.  If they were locked down, the aircraft would have to crush them to rotate to a takeoff attitude.   


That's an interesting thought. Supposedly the 727, with the weight of the 3 engines in the back, was prone to tipping back, and the stairs were rigid enough to prevent that from happening while passengers loaded. So, do you think the plane would be able to 'crush' them on takeoff, or would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation?


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...a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.


General info... A box type, cargo, skyvan type aircraft with a tailgate door, the main part of the door is hinged at the top rear and opens upward and inward to the ceiling of the aircraft, so it is never exposed to the slipstream, or wind outside. There is a smaller section that drops down. On the ground it might serve as a ramp, in flight it just drops flat to the floor. They are designed to be able to open in flight. Most people with military experience are likely aware of that.

I doubt if the 727 was prone to tipping back except under very unusual circumstances.  Admittedly, Shutter has posted a picture of a 727 tipping back while parked at what appeared to be a maintenance facility.

Tipping back was fairly routine on WW2 type propeller transport aircraft such as the DC-4.  Aircraft such as that with a straight wing had a metal bar that a crew member would place under the rear part of the fuselage during loading and unloading. 

This was due to the center-of-gravity for straight wing aircraft being relatively far forward with respect to the passenger/cargo/fuel tank areas.  With swept wing aircraft, the center-of-gravity is much further to the rear and tilting is not normally a problem.

Would like to have a 727 sitting in my pasture!  ;) Would settle for an F86 ...  :)   Or a Curtis Jenny!  :rofl:
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8134 on: July 14, 2021, 05:47:06 PM »
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In reality, the 727 could takeoff with the stairs down if they were not locked down.  If they were locked down, the aircraft would have to crush them to rotate to a takeoff attitude.   


That's an interesting thought. Supposedly the 727, with the weight of the 3 engines in the back, was prone to tipping back, and the stairs were rigid enough to prevent that from happening while passengers loaded. So, do you think the plane would be able to 'crush' them on takeoff, or would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation?


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.


General info... A box type, cargo, skyvan type aircraft with a tailgate door, the main part of the door is hinged at the top rear and opens upward and inward to the ceiling of the aircraft, so it is never exposed to the slipstream, or wind outside. There is a smaller section that drops down. On the ground it might serve as a ramp, in flight it just drops flat to the floor. They are designed to be able to open in flight. Most people with military experience are likely aware of that.

I doubt if the 727 was prone to tipping back except under very unusual circumstances.  Admittedly, Shutter has posted a picture of a 727 tipping back while parked at what appeared to be a maintenance facility.

Tipping back was fairly routine on WW2 type propeller transport aircraft such as the DC-4.  Aircraft such as that with a straight wing had a metal bar that a crew member would place under the rear part of the fuselage during loading and unloading. 

This was due to the center-of-gravity for straight wing aircraft being relatively far forward with respect to the passenger/cargo/fuel tank areas.  With swept wing aircraft, the center-of-gravity is much further to the rear and tilting is not normally a problem.


Well the main part of my speculative question is about the takeoff. If the 727 attempted to take off with the stairs down and locked, would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation, or would they fail structurally ('crush') and allow rotation and takeoff? And if the latter, how likely might it be that they damage more of the tail and possibly cause further problems? I'm curious your opinion on that.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8135 on: July 14, 2021, 06:20:21 PM »
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Just to clarify, Kari, what I am suggesting is that you contact 377 so that 377 can advise your DB Cooper suspect/ friend AND you, so y'all might know better his legal predicament if you - and he - go public.

Also, please address your "homework" that I assigned you! We'll need answers to the following:

1. How did your friend know the 727 could be flown with the aft stairs down, along with all the special metrics necessary for a safe exit?
2. How did the money end up at Tina Bar?
3. Details on what happened after he left the plane.
4. Details from "Jesse" on how he assisted, where, and when.
5. What happened to the money and parachute? Are any remnants still available? If not, why not?
6. How did your friend get to PDX on 11. 24. 71?
7. A full physical work-up is needed: height, weight, hair color, eyes, DNA, fingerprint samples, etc.
8. Name of police officer and department that you gave the pix and info to, so that we can corroborate that angle of your story.

As always, if your friend and Jesse want to go ahead with disclosure, you will have to agree also on whether to monetize it. I strongly suggest that you contact an entertainment lawyer for their advice. Remember, Hollywood plays a very harsh game.

Bruce: Obviously I do not know what you guys discussed, but here are thoughts on two of the questions.

Question 1: Did the suspect state that they knew the 727 could fly with the stairs down?  I personally think that one scenario is that Cooper assumed that any plane of that size could fly with "appendages" so to say, like a bomber could fly with a bomb bay open, or engine parts hanging off, or a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.  Could he have just had some familiarity with aerodynamics?

Question 2: How did the money get to Tina Bar? Cooper may not even know how it got there.  The question I'd ask is: "Do you remember how some of the money could have become separated from the rest?"

Castle, I suppose that Cooper could have intuited that any jet of large-enough size could fly with stuff dangling in the air. But then why did Scotty get the heebie-jeebies with the notion of flying with the stairs deployed?

Smile.

Sure, the appendage scenario is possible, but in light of the totality of requests from DBC on flight configurations, it is a modest consideration in my view.

As for question #2, I like you suggestion on reframing the query. You're thinking like Eric!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 06:20:54 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8136 on: July 14, 2021, 06:42:01 PM »
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In reality, the 727 could takeoff with the stairs down if they were not locked down.  If they were locked down, the aircraft would have to crush them to rotate to a takeoff attitude.   


That's an interesting thought. Supposedly the 727, with the weight of the 3 engines in the back, was prone to tipping back, and the stairs were rigid enough to prevent that from happening while passengers loaded. So, do you think the plane would be able to 'crush' them on takeoff, or would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation?


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...a cargo plane could open a back door (like a C-130) and still fly.


General info... A box type, cargo, skyvan type aircraft with a tailgate door, the main part of the door is hinged at the top rear and opens upward and inward to the ceiling of the aircraft, so it is never exposed to the slipstream, or wind outside. There is a smaller section that drops down. On the ground it might serve as a ramp, in flight it just drops flat to the floor. They are designed to be able to open in flight. Most people with military experience are likely aware of that.

I doubt if the 727 was prone to tipping back except under very unusual circumstances.  Admittedly, Shutter has posted a picture of a 727 tipping back while parked at what appeared to be a maintenance facility.

Tipping back was fairly routine on WW2 type propeller transport aircraft such as the DC-4.  Aircraft such as that with a straight wing had a metal bar that a crew member would place under the rear part of the fuselage during loading and unloading. 

This was due to the center-of-gravity for straight wing aircraft being relatively far forward with respect to the passenger/cargo/fuel tank areas.  With swept wing aircraft, the center-of-gravity is much further to the rear and tilting is not normally a problem.


Well the main part of my speculative question is about the takeoff. If the 727 attempted to take off with the stairs down and locked, would the stairs be strong enough to prevent rotation, or would they fail structurally ('crush') and allow rotation and takeoff? And if the latter, how likely might it be that they damage more of the tail and possibly cause further problems? I'm curious your opinion on that.

I don't have access to any information on the structural integrity of the stairs or the longitudinal control power for the wing configuration that Cooper specified.  Nevertheless, I will speculate a bit.

1.  Assume that the stairs are locked down and stay that way throughout the takeoff run.  The aircraft would probably need a lot longer runway than was available at SEATAC to generate the lift necessary to fly while the nose wheel was still on the ground.  This doesn't look good.

2.  Assume that the stairs are locked down and stay that way throughout the takeoff run.  If the aircraft has sufficient longitudinal control power to get the nose wheel off the ground, the stairs would probably buckle initially up to the point where the hydraulic pistons are located on the stairs.  The aircraft could probably fly but would probably need a longer ground run to get off.  This looks quite a bit better.

3.  If the aircraft had sufficient longitudinal control power to really smash the stairs to the point that they separated from the aircraft, then it should be a routine flight to Reno.

If the stairs, or portions thereof, came off during the takeoff run, it is possible that some flying debris could damage the aft fuselage but, in my opinion, that would probably be minor.  The 727 has a rear fuselage skid that deploys when the landing gear is down and that would prevent the engines and aft fuselage sheet metal from striking the runway.  So this scenario would probably not be a big deal or prevent the airliner from going on to Reno.     
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8137 on: July 14, 2021, 11:10:39 PM »
Assessment of the FBI's 45-year Norjak Investigation - An Update

At the MN, for those interested:

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Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8138 on: July 15, 2021, 12:05:03 AM »
One documented case of a 727 taking off with the stairs down. this was the last flight out of Da Nang March 29, 1975.

Looking at the video again shows the stairs were not locked while they were going down the runway. they also pulled a man off the stairs at 6,000 feet.

The struts or arms of the stairs are not hydraulic. they hinge into place. they might have hydraulics at the top of the struts. the center is attached with a pin or sleeved bolt allowing them to move back and forth similar to putting a kink in a straw. they also appear to be spring assisted as well.


..
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 06:47:18 AM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8139 on: July 15, 2021, 02:43:32 PM »
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Its now on 20 meters. Somebody is trying to wipe out use of these bands at prime times of usage! Tune between 7.100 and 7.200 in the evening. Mike Staal K6myc reports the disruption in California is severe.

-- ...    ... --   
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 03:34:36 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8140 on: July 20, 2021, 02:57:25 PM »
Have no delusions! For the 100,000,000th time, I am not Johnny Green whoever that is.

The smut peddlers are working overtime!  :offtopicman:

« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:21:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8141 on: July 22, 2021, 03:04:31 PM »
Russ Calame, Death of, confirmed

I just got a press clip courtesy of Galen Cook that shows The Deseret News of Salt Lake City has confirmed that Russ Calame died July 16, 2015. Russ was 94.

For all you newbies: Russ was the SAC at SLC, and the prime force behind the book: DB Cooper - The Real McCoy that Bernie Rhodes wrote. It is an excellent book, and I highly recommend it. Russ and Bernie's criticisms of the FBI would NEVER be written these days.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 03:04:50 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8142 on: July 22, 2021, 03:10:51 PM »
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Russ Calame, Death of, confirmed

I just got a press clip courtesy of Galen Cook that shows The Deseret News of Salt Lake City has confirmed that Russ Calame died July 16, 2015. Russ was 94.

For all you newbies: Russ was the SAC at SLC, and the prime force behind the book: DB Cooper - The Real McCoy that Bernie Rhodes wrote. It is an excellent book, and I highly recommend it. Russ and Bernie's criticisms of the FBI would NEVER be written these days.

Is Galen Cook Johnny Green ?   :conspiracy:
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8143 on: July 23, 2021, 02:47:10 PM »
I think Johnny Green is Galen Cook !  :rofl:    I think Smith knows who Johnny Green is and has known all along . . . the whole thing is just another game these people play in a continuing feud to milk Blevins' goat. 

Hopefully someday we can get beyond the 'whale songs' of these competing Cooper genera !
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 03:48:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8144 on: July 24, 2021, 12:54:10 AM »
Johnny Green, Marla, and Gypsy23 are a royal pain in the ass at the MN for all the trash talking they do about RMB. One of these days I'm gonna have to dig through my WordPress files and re-learn how to ban people.