Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1827351 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6390 on: October 23, 2019, 05:44:29 PM »
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This radio jump exit shot of me was taken last Saturday, Oct 19, 2019. Photo by Capt. Jim Wilson RCAF. It's hard to see but I am carrying a gear bag at the top of my left leg. As freefall speed increases, that symmetrical air load starts to turn and roll me. I have to compensate by adjusting my body to maintain a stable position. I absolutely need a visual horizon and heading reference to do this. No way I could stay stable without them both.

377

377,

You have just made my case for Cooper tumbling and he would be in much more trouble due to the darkness and lack of any visual cues.

What is the typical g load for openings with rectangular canopies?
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6391 on: October 23, 2019, 05:45:09 PM »
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Once again, I feel compelled to state that we do not know conclusively that DB Cooper used an NB-6 or and NB-8 parachute. Those speculations are based upon Earl Cossey's statements, and I think it is important to consider that Cooper could have used Norman Hayden's Pioneer/Steinthaul rig. In addition, I think that any speculation from an FBI agent on Cooper's parachuting success needs to be taken with a large grain of salt since the Bureau had enormous internal and external pressures to tout the "too tough, he died" narrative.

R99 replies:  The harnesses for NB-6 and NB-8 parachutes are the same design.  The canopy that is in the container is irrelevant here.  I'll take the word of an FBI field agent over your word any day of the week.  Where is your proof that Cooper didn't die in the jump? 

As for tying bags around one's waist, I never heard that this would produce spinal injuries. Any documentation on this, R99? Andrade? Perhaps you can comment on these issues at CooperCon?

R99 replies:  The money bag weighed about 22 pounds and the opening shock from an unmodified round canopy was something on the order of 10 g's.  That puts about a 220 pound additional load on the spine.  Since the canopy is pulling in one direction and the money bag is pulling in the opposite direction something is going to give and it will be the spine. 

I'll bet that 377 ties his radio equipment to his harness plus probably additions straps to his leg to keep the equipment from flapping around during his radio jumps.  Right, 377?


Lastly, I think we need to consider actively that the reserve chute might have been carrying some of the loot and not used as a jury-rigged reserve. Perhaps it was tied to Cooper's waist as well.

R99 replies:  You can forget about Cooper putting money in the missing reserve.  What did he do with the canopy?  He left the canopy from the good reserve on the aircraft so what happened to the bad canopy?

Lastly, lastly, Robert - and any others - care to speculate on how the following guys made it safety to the ground while Coop didn't make it?

1. Richard LaPoint - jumped in January in Colorado wearing only a shirt, slacks and his cowboy boots. His skydiving expertise is still unknown.

2. Martin McNally - not only had he not jumped before, he had to be shown how to put on a parachute.

As for the others: Heady, McCoy and Hahneman, a tip o' the hat for making it to the ground at night.

R99 replies:  Good luck.

do you know how to use this forum and post a post?  :good post:
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6392 on: October 23, 2019, 05:46:10 PM »
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Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?

Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.     

So, are you saying that some people who jump out of planes with parachutes aren't really skydivers or parachutists? Are WWII members of the Airborne really parachutists, under your definition? Or, are you the one and only sole parachutist  - by your definitions of what a parachutist is or is not!

In fact, has anyone ever been a true parachutist by your definitions? Who? Why hasn't everyone who ever put on a parachute and jumped from a plane died, according to your stringent requirements?  ;)

According to you, anyone who has ever tied anything around their waste and parachuted, died. Or is that only people who jumped from jets? And of those people who jumped from jets with anything tied around their waste why didn't all of them die? Just dumb luck?   

Your stringent requirements seem to conflict with - REALITY!   :rofl:

You claim to know exactly how Cooper was rigged and jumped and what happened! Were you there?  :bravo:

Georger, you continue to claim I made statements which I didn't make.  But since you have a decades long history of making silly statements and irresponsible claims that is to be expected of you.

If you know someone who is fluent in English, perhaps you can get them to explain to you what I wrote above.  I'm not going to waste my time explaining things that you apparently can't understand in the first place.

preposterous, as usual.

Your claim that you are the only trained knowledgeable parachutist on Earth - is slightly urinal.

Just more BS from Georger.
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6393 on: October 23, 2019, 05:47:18 PM »
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This radio jump exit shot of me was taken last Saturday, Oct 19, 2019. Photo by Capt. Jim Wilson RCAF. It's hard to see but I am carrying a gear bag at the top of my left leg. As freefall speed increases, that symmetrical air load starts to turn and roll me. I have to compensate by adjusting my body to maintain a stable position. I absolutely need a visual horizon and heading reference to do this. No way I could stay stable without them both.

377

377,

You have just made my case for Cooper tumbling and he would be in much more trouble due to the darkness and lack of any visual cues.

What is the typical g load for openings with rectangular canopies?

What is the typical g load for posting monsense? He didnt say what he said! He didn't mean what he said! He doesn;t know what he said!  :nono:

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:57:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6394 on: October 23, 2019, 06:20:03 PM »
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This radio jump exit shot of me was taken last Saturday, Oct 19, 2019. Photo by Capt. Jim Wilson RCAF. It's hard to see but I am carrying a gear bag at the top of my left leg. As freefall speed increases, that symmetrical air load starts to turn and roll me. I have to compensate by adjusting my body to maintain a stable position. I absolutely need a visual horizon and heading reference to do this. No way I could stay stable without them both.

377

377,

You have just made my case for Cooper tumbling and he would be in much more trouble due to the darkness and lack of any visual cues.

What is the typical g load for openings with rectangular canopies?

Ram Air ("square") canopy opening forces at terminal velocity can range from about 3 to 18 Gs. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some early head down skydivers who had premature openings from container flutter (now head down gear is specially designed to prevent this)  suffered aortic dissections and bled out on the ride down. Their aorta was literally ripped in half by G forces.

I had one so-called slammer opening. I had been using packers at a big meet and obviously one did something really wrong. My terminal velocity opening was almost instant and VERY painful. I didn't realize it until others looked at me, but hundreds of capillaries burst under my facial skin and it looked a LOT worse than it really was. A number of canopy suspension lines broke rendering my canopy uncontrollable and I cut away. I had a lot of bruises from harness strap forces. No sport for old men, but I can't quit. Fully addicted to the rush.

377
 
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Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6395 on: October 23, 2019, 06:31:13 PM »
Remember all Cooper had to do was face forward on the steps and pull. He would have had a relatively gentle stable "squidding" opening, just like the 727 jumpers over Thailand did. If Cooper had served in SE Asia and was involved in or around airdrops (kicker perhaps?) he may well have learned about these SAT 727 jumps over Korat. There was an overlap between Nam kickers and USFS smokejumpers. The smokejumpers were specially recruited. The smokejumper background is one reason Sheridan Peterson makes such an interesting candidate but there is ZERO evidence that puts him on the NORJAK plane. This is a variant of correlation does not equal causation. Sheridan is the nearly perfect candidate but that only proves ability not involvement. I wish he'd ask the FBI for the results of his DNA test. As long as he is alive only he can get this, not third parties.

377
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6396 on: October 23, 2019, 07:38:49 PM »
Hag and his fellow "hunter"  friends often met and camped directly across the Columbian River from Tena Bar. They hunted raccoon anywhere from there to Mt. St Helen, where they also had a "place". Raccoon were everywhere.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6397 on: October 23, 2019, 07:48:19 PM »
I believe there would have hunters in the area you are referring to Robert99. Depending on the weather, they might still have been running raccoon in late November.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 07:53:22 PM by haggarknew »
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6398 on: October 23, 2019, 08:26:37 PM »
As far as how much experience db had skydiving, I am not sure. He chose to jump at night. Doesn't this indicate something?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6399 on: October 23, 2019, 10:03:10 PM »
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Have you seen the container after the chute is deployed or out? it's useless to use that's why he tried to use the canopy. he would have to secure it more than the bag..

No, I haven't. That's why I hope a reserve will be at CooperCon and we can try stuff bills into it.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6400 on: October 23, 2019, 10:13:57 PM »
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I believe it snowed in the Tina Bar area a day or two after the hijacking and that, plus the relatively low temperatures, would have reduced the possibility of Cooper being found visually or by smell.

 

This is the first I've heard about snow on November 25-30, 1971 at low elevations, T-Bar included. Everyone I've spoken to about snow tells me that the snow was above 1,500 feet, which is typical.

I live at 600-feet elevation and it only snows here on occasion. Some winters, never.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6401 on: October 23, 2019, 11:03:27 PM »
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Remember all Cooper had to do was face forward on the steps and pull. He would have had a relatively gentle stable "squidding" opening, just like the 727 jumpers over Thailand did. If Cooper had served in SE Asia and was involved in or around airdrops (kicker perhaps?) he may well have learned about these SAT 727 jumps over Korat. There was an overlap between Nam kickers and USFS smokejumpers. The smokejumpers were specially recruited. The smokejumper background is one reason Sheridan Peterson makes such an interesting candidate but there is ZERO evidence that puts him on the NORJAK plane. This is a variant of correlation does not equal causation. Sheridan is the nearly perfect candidate but that only proves ability not involvement. I wish he'd ask the FBI for the results of his DNA test. As long as he is alive only he can get this, not third parties.

377

I have seen plenty of pictures and movies of people standing near the wing tips of biplanes and pulling the rip cord.  Those parachutes opened fully immediately without any "squibbing" at all.  But did Cooper know enough about parachuting to do what you suggest?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6402 on: October 23, 2019, 11:07:18 PM »
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This radio jump exit shot of me was taken last Saturday, Oct 19, 2019. Photo by Capt. Jim Wilson RCAF. It's hard to see but I am carrying a gear bag at the top of my left leg. As freefall speed increases, that symmetrical air load starts to turn and roll me. I have to compensate by adjusting my body to maintain a stable position. I absolutely need a visual horizon and heading reference to do this. No way I could stay stable without them both.

377

377,

You have just made my case for Cooper tumbling and he would be in much more trouble due to the darkness and lack of any visual cues.

What is the typical g load for openings with rectangular canopies?

Ram Air ("square") canopy opening forces at terminal velocity can range from about 3 to 18 Gs. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some early head down skydivers who had premature openings from container flutter (now head down gear is specially designed to prevent this)  suffered aortic dissections and bled out on the ride down. Their aorta was literally ripped in half by G forces.

I had one so-called slammer opening. I had been using packers at a big meet and obviously one did something really wrong. My terminal velocity opening was almost instant and VERY painful. I didn't realize it until others looked at me, but hundreds of capillaries burst under my facial skin and it looked a LOT worse than it really was. A number of canopy suspension lines broke rendering my canopy uncontrollable and I cut away. I had a lot of bruises from harness strap forces. No sport for old men, but I can't quit. Fully addicted to the rush.

377

I got bruises on ever opening with a 5-TU round canopy and my helmet got some new scratches from the Capewell hardware.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6403 on: October 23, 2019, 11:10:42 PM »
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Hag and his fellow "hunter"  friends often met and camped directly across the Columbian River from Tena Bar. They hunted raccoon anywhere from there to Mt. St Helen, where they also had a "place". Raccoon were everywhere.

I don't know what was going on across the river from Tina Bar in Oregon, but the area between the North West Lower River Road and the Columbia River is quite narrow and mostly private property from what I have seen.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6404 on: October 23, 2019, 11:17:08 PM »
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As far as how much experience db had skydiving, I am not sure. He chose to jump at night. Doesn't this indicate something?

Yes, it indicates that he wasn't very bright.  Sunset in Seattle was about 4:45 PM that day and Cooper didn't permit the airliner to land until about 5:15 PM.  So he was obviously planning a nighttime jump from the outset.  And the weather was not at all favorable for a jump at any time.  Plus Cooper wasn't dressed in any appropriate clothing for a jump.  He was just plain dumb.