Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1782331 times)

Offline haggarknew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Thanked: 46 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6375 on: October 23, 2019, 01:00:28 PM »
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '? 
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6376 on: October 23, 2019, 02:08:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?

Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.       
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6377 on: October 23, 2019, 03:15:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?

Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.     

So, are you saying that some people who jump out of planes with parachutes aren't really skydivers or parachutists? Are WWII members of the Airborne really parachutists, under your definition? Or, are you the one and only sole parachutist  - by your definitions of what a parachutist is or is not!

In fact, has anyone ever been a true parachutist by your definitions? Who? Why hasn't everyone who ever put on a parachute and jumped from a plane died, according to your stringent requirements?  ;)

According to you, anyone who has ever tied anything around their waste and parachuted, died. Or is that only people who jumped from jets? And of those people who jumped from jets with anything tied around their waste why didn't all of them die? Just dumb luck?   

Your stringent requirements seem to conflict with - REALITY!   :rofl:

You claim to know exactly how Cooper was rigged and jumped and what happened! Were you there?  :bravo:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 03:27:23 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6378 on: October 23, 2019, 03:17:06 PM »
Once again, I feel compelled to state that we do not know conclusively that DB Cooper used an NB-6 or and NB-8 parachute. Those speculations are based upon Earl Cossey's statements, and I think it is important to consider that Cooper could have used Norman Hayden's Pioneer/Steinthaul rig. In addition, I think that any speculation from an FBI agent on Cooper's parachuting success needs to be taken with a large grain of salt since the Bureau had enormous internal and external pressures to tout the "too tough, he died" narrative.

As for tying bags around one's waist, I never heard that this would produce spinal injuries. Any documentation on this, R99? Andrade? Perhaps you can comment on these issues at CooperCon?

Lastly, I think we need to consider actively that the reserve chute might have been carrying some of the loot and not used as a jury-rigged reserve. Perhaps it was tied to Cooper's waist as well.

Lastly, lastly, Robert - and any others - care to speculate on how the following guys made it safety to the ground while Coop didn't make it?

1. Richard LaPoint - jumped in January in Colorado wearing only a shirt, slacks and his cowboy boots. His skydiving expertise is still unknown.

2. Martin McNally - not only had he not jumped before, he had to be shown how to put on a parachute.

As for the others: Heady, McCoy and Hahneman, a tip o' the hat for making it to the ground at night.
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6379 on: October 23, 2019, 04:16:49 PM »
Have you seen the container after the chute is deployed or out? it's useless to use that's why he tried to use the canopy. he would have to secure it more than the bag..
 

Offline MEYDC

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Thanked: 9 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6380 on: October 23, 2019, 04:26:01 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?
Wouldn't  a body have turned up if he had been a no pull?
Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.     
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6381 on: October 23, 2019, 04:37:27 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?

Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.     

So, are you saying that some people who jump out of planes with parachutes aren't really skydivers or parachutists? Are WWII members of the Airborne really parachutists, under your definition? Or, are you the one and only sole parachutist  - by your definitions of what a parachutist is or is not!

In fact, has anyone ever been a true parachutist by your definitions? Who? Why hasn't everyone who ever put on a parachute and jumped from a plane died, according to your stringent requirements?  ;)

According to you, anyone who has ever tied anything around their waste and parachuted, died. Or is that only people who jumped from jets? And of those people who jumped from jets with anything tied around their waste why didn't all of them die? Just dumb luck?   

Your stringent requirements seem to conflict with - REALITY!   :rofl:

You claim to know exactly how Cooper was rigged and jumped and what happened! Were you there?  :bravo:

Georger, you continue to claim I made statements which I didn't make.  But since you have a decades long history of making silly statements and irresponsible claims that is to be expected of you.

If you know someone who is fluent in English, perhaps you can get them to explain to you what I wrote above.  I'm not going to waste my time explaining things that you apparently can't understand in the first place.
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6382 on: October 23, 2019, 04:40:38 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Have you seen the container after the chute is deployed or out? it's useless to use that's why he tried to use the canopy. he would have to secure it more than the bag..

Shutter, please explain what you are talking about here?
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6383 on: October 23, 2019, 05:08:06 PM »
If Cooper cratered on land, don't you think his body or gear would have been found by now? Hunters comb the likely areas year after year looking for game. They trespass often. The only thing they don't trapse through are deep bramble patches and bodies of water.

Vultures would have shown up quickly as decay set. Savvy treasure hunters were probably looking for this immediately after the jump. Vultures never miss a large carcass.

377
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:18:45 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6384 on: October 23, 2019, 05:09:33 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Once again, I feel compelled to state that we do not know conclusively that DB Cooper used an NB-6 or and NB-8 parachute. Those speculations are based upon Earl Cossey's statements, and I think it is important to consider that Cooper could have used Norman Hayden's Pioneer/Steinthaul rig. In addition, I think that any speculation from an FBI agent on Cooper's parachuting success needs to be taken with a large grain of salt since the Bureau had enormous internal and external pressures to tout the "too tough, he died" narrative.

R99 replies:  The harnesses for NB-6 and NB-8 parachutes are the same design.  The canopy that is in the container is irrelevant here.  I'll take the word of an FBI field agent over your word any day of the week.  Where is your proof that Cooper didn't die in the jump? 

As for tying bags around one's waist, I never heard that this would produce spinal injuries. Any documentation on this, R99? Andrade? Perhaps you can comment on these issues at CooperCon?

R99 replies:  The money bag weighed about 22 pounds and the opening shock from an unmodified round canopy was something on the order of 10 g's.  That puts about a 220 pound additional load on the spine.  Since the canopy is pulling in one direction and the money bag is pulling in the opposite direction something is going to give and it will be the spine. 

I'll bet that 377 ties his radio equipment to his harness plus probably additions straps to his leg to keep the equipment from flapping around during his radio jumps.  Right, 377?


Lastly, I think we need to consider actively that the reserve chute might have been carrying some of the loot and not used as a jury-rigged reserve. Perhaps it was tied to Cooper's waist as well.

R99 replies:  You can forget about Cooper putting money in the missing reserve.  What did he do with the canopy?  He left the canopy from the good reserve on the aircraft so what happened to the bad canopy?

Lastly, lastly, Robert - and any others - care to speculate on how the following guys made it safety to the ground while Coop didn't make it?

1. Richard LaPoint - jumped in January in Colorado wearing only a shirt, slacks and his cowboy boots. His skydiving expertise is still unknown.

2. Martin McNally - not only had he not jumped before, he had to be shown how to put on a parachute.

As for the others: Heady, McCoy and Hahneman, a tip o' the hat for making it to the ground at night.

R99 replies:  Good luck.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6385 on: October 23, 2019, 05:15:49 PM »
"I'll bet that 377 ties his radio equipment to his harness plus probably additions straps to his leg to keep the equipment from flapping around during his radio jumps.  Right, 377?"

Yes. And also a vest with all sorts of attachment points. Look:

Note big gear bag on one leg.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:16:11 PM by 377 »
 
The following users thanked this post: haggarknew

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6386 on: October 23, 2019, 05:26:38 PM »
This radio jump exit shot of me was taken last Saturday, Oct 19, 2019. Photo by Capt. Jim Wilson RCAF. It's hard to see but I am carrying a gear bag at the top of my left leg. As freefall speed increases, that symmetrical air load starts to turn and roll me. I have to compensate by adjusting my body to maintain a stable position. I absolutely need a visual horizon and heading reference to do this. No way I could stay stable without them both.

377

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:37:51 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6387 on: October 23, 2019, 05:31:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If Cooper cratered on land, dont you think his body or gear would have been found by now? Hunters comb the likely areas year after year looking for game. They trespass often. The only thing they don't trapse through are deep bramble patches and bodies of water.

Vultures would have shown up quickly as decay set. Savvy treasure hunters were probably looking for this immediately after the jump. Vultures never miss a large carcass.

377

Replying to Meydc  and 377:

Your implied assumption is that Cooper landed in an area where there would be hunters or other people visiting.  What if this is not the case?

Even if Cooper had landed in an area or in vegetation close to civilization, that doesn't mean that he would be immediately found.  I believe it snowed in the Tina Bar area a day or two after the hijacking and that, plus the relatively low temperatures, would have reduced the possibility of Cooper being found visually or by smell.  And the Tina Bar area has some world class briar patches and I doubt very much if a vulture is going to plunge into one of those regardless of how hungry he may be.

I have seen hunters in the Tina Bar area but they were East of the North West Lower River Road.  Basically, there is nothing that would interest hunters between the North West Lower River Road and the Columbia River.

Further, the winter weather in that area is such that people are going to stay indoors for the most part and not be out in the rain.

So Cooper could have headed down the Columbia River with the spring run off and no one would have ever seen him.

 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6388 on: October 23, 2019, 05:43:29 PM »
It's certainly possible that his body was there but never discovered. Briar patch impact would explain that. But the impact trajectory would have cleared some briar branches and vultures would have at least been circling if not feeding. They are amazingly good at finding carcasses. Surely I am not the only one who would think of using vultures to find Cooper's body and loot.

377
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:52:50 PM by 377 »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6389 on: October 23, 2019, 05:44:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Robert99, I am curious as to why you believe db had 'obvious limited parachuting experience '?

Good question.  First, let me say that Cooper apparently had some experience in putting on a parachute.  At least Tina said that he didn't seem to have any difficulty in putting a back pack on.  And the NB-6 type harness is a bit more complicated than the usual military back pack harness.  But then Tina may not have seen anyone put on a parachute before either.  So who knows what that means.

Cooper is reported to have brushed off the parachute instructions that had been included with the four parachutes stating that he didn't need them.  This doesn't mean that Cooper had any actual jumping experience.  All things considered, I agree with the FBI agent who suggests that Cooper probably had some experience as a "kicker" or load master on military aircraft who routinely wore a parachute but had never jumped one.  As such, his parachuting instruction would probably have consisted of something like "jump out of the airplane, count to 10, then pull the ripcord."  I think the FBI agent who said that "Cooper had just enough knowledge about parachutes to get himself killed" got it right.

Cooper used the wrong lingo in stating what parachutes he wanted.  That by itself suggests to me that he was not a skydiver.  He got what he asked for but that is not what he thought he was asking for.

Tina stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was tying a chord from the money bag around his waist.  That is a big no-no since it almost certainly would have resulted in spinal injuries during the parachute opening.  He should have tied the money bag to the parachute harness.

Cooper apparently took the missing chest reserve with him.  If he tried to jury rig it to the harness to act as a normal reserve chute, then a bad outcome to the jump is almost guaranteed.  Even under the best conditions for a free-fall, Cooper would have been on the ground in 60 seconds and about 40 seconds under the worst conditions.  Remember that Cooper would be tumbling and in total darkness during this free-fall. 

Based on my aeronautical experiences from my early teens, I know that Mother Nature has the last say in matters such as this and I would NEVER bet against her.

So in my opinion, Cooper was probably a no-pull and on the ground and dead by about 8:15 PM PST on November 24, 1971.     

So, are you saying that some people who jump out of planes with parachutes aren't really skydivers or parachutists? Are WWII members of the Airborne really parachutists, under your definition? Or, are you the one and only sole parachutist  - by your definitions of what a parachutist is or is not!

In fact, has anyone ever been a true parachutist by your definitions? Who? Why hasn't everyone who ever put on a parachute and jumped from a plane died, according to your stringent requirements?  ;)

According to you, anyone who has ever tied anything around their waste and parachuted, died. Or is that only people who jumped from jets? And of those people who jumped from jets with anything tied around their waste why didn't all of them die? Just dumb luck?   

Your stringent requirements seem to conflict with - REALITY!   :rofl:

You claim to know exactly how Cooper was rigged and jumped and what happened! Were you there?  :bravo:

Georger, you continue to claim I made statements which I didn't make.  But since you have a decades long history of making silly statements and irresponsible claims that is to be expected of you.

If you know someone who is fluent in English, perhaps you can get them to explain to you what I wrote above.  I'm not going to waste my time explaining things that you apparently can't understand in the first place.

preposterous, as usual.

Your claim that you are the only trained knowledgeable parachutist on Earth - is slightly urinal.