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[Robert99]

I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?

Or do I have that wrong too!?

Why do we have to hire teams to research what you think or said at the Library of Congress to find out what you think and what you said at 12:89 March 9 1493?  This has been going on for years! It's impossible to follow the Evolution of Bruce Smith.  

Here we are again!!!!!!!!!!!!   Discussing what Bruce Smith said or thinks or did not say or think -  vs DB Cooper.  It never fails. Bruce you have become a bigger more urgent topic than DB Cooper! 

So, did ' his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations' and exceed that of Christopher Columbus ?

Your knowledge of this matter seems to even exceed: 727 pilots and NWO flight operations.  ! 

Bruce's present day (2017) knowledge of the aft stairs ability to be lowered in flight does exceed the knowledge of NWO operations and the three members of the flight crew involved in the 1971 hijacking.  But that is probably due totally to the fact that knowledge of the aft stairs has been widely circulated ever where between here and Pluto since 1971.

No one is questioning the aft stairs debate. What is at stake now is '15 degree flaps' and whether that indicates Cooper was a pilot ... and if Bruce Smith is a genius!

Maybe Cooper paid attention to the flaps as they were preparing for take-off in Portland and estimated the setting to be 15 degrees.

[377]

I see nothing in Cooper's demands that say he had to be a pilot (regardless of whether he just said "flaps down" or specified "15 degrees").

I just see it as an indication that he generally savvy about airplanes, the necessity of a slow exit speed and figured out a pragmatic way to insure low speed flight.

Doesn't mean he was a pilot. Doesn't mean he was a jumper.

Putting on an NB rig with ease (which some accounts say he did) is curious. I was an experienced skydiver when I tried putting on my first NB 8. I was confused about how to fasten the chest strap. On the NB rigs the chest strap is formed not by a single piece of webbing but rather by connecting (by buckling together) the apexes of two opposing triangles of webbing. Not so intuitive. A person with Navy parachute experience would have no trouble doing this however.  Neither would a rigger. Neither would someone brighter than 377. 

377

[Shutter]

I think it depends on the person...I remember the first time I put a safety harness on, I had no problem what so ever. now, over the years I've seen so many stare at it with total confusion as to how to put the harness on. some catch on quickly, and others don't..getting basic knowledge goes a long way, but in this case you might want to do extra homework if you don't know what you are doing...the question is....did he?

[andrade1812]

I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?

Or do I have that wrong too!?

Why do we have to hire teams to research what you think or said at the Library of Congress to find out what you think and what you said at 12:89 March 9 1493?  This has been going on for years! It's impossible to follow the Evolution of Bruce Smith.  

Here we are again!!!!!!!!!!!!   Discussing what Bruce Smith said or thinks or did not say or think -  vs DB Cooper.  It never fails. Bruce you have become a bigger more urgent topic than DB Cooper! 

So, did ' his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations' and exceed that of Christopher Columbus ?

Your knowledge of this matter seems to even exceed: 727 pilots and NWO flight operations.  ! 

Bruce's present day (2017) knowledge of the aft stairs ability to be lowered in flight does exceed the knowledge of NWO operations and the three members of the flight crew involved in the 1971 hijacking.  But that is probably due totally to the fact that knowledge of the aft stairs has been widely circulated ever where between here and Pluto since 1971.

No one is questioning the aft stairs debate. What is at stake now is '15 degree flaps' and whether that indicates Cooper was a pilot ... and if Bruce Smith is a genius!

Maybe Cooper paid attention to the flaps as they were preparing for take-off in Portland and estimated the setting to be 15 degrees.

I tend to think this was a cold read on Cooper's part. A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number. Rataczak did the same thing when asking where they could stop for fuel, and Cooper picked the inland spot instead of an airport closer to the coast.

[georger]

It's possible it was a crime of opportunity...with a twist

A crime of opportunity is a crime that is committed without planning when the perpetrator sees that he/she has the chance to commit the act at that moment and seizes it. Such acts have little or no premeditation.

Cooper see's the opportunity, much like a prisoner would see an escape route and starts working from that point forward...it has a plan more than just an opportunity..

Was Cooper a pilot? I', not so sure. he failed to give any route, cords, airway etc.. he fails to get any updates as to where the plane is, or even the altitude..a lot of the knowledge could of been obtained through a couple different avenues. jump knowledge should of been easy, the filling of the fuel. the stairs seemed to be his weakest link to make everything click. we can't confirm his not wanting out as early as possible by asking for the stairs to remain open. could of been a bluff, but what if he did want out just after takeoff. could this be the reason for "the right time and place"?

I would have to look at the approach plates to Portland, but I doubt they are close to where the plane was, so attempting a DZ would be tough when you haven't a clue where you are. did he really see the dam, did it make it through the cloud layers. his timing of the plane would have to match the direction the plane was going. how did he know this route that was taken, he said nothing but fly to Mexico? depending on the wind, time, traffic, and weather. any dry runs from Seattle should, or would be different in the approach..

I see Coop's sudden issue of tech demands as a possible 'garbage list' given more than an hour before 305 will even take off. It wasn't even relevant yet. The stairs aren't even down yet. It may indicate at 6:21 he wasn't anticipating being on the ground for another hour with refueling! (As Sluggo pointed out years ago average NWO turnaround time for cleaning the cabin, refueling, and being airborn again was under 30 mins). 15d flaps or trim or whatever is never mentioned again with any direct reference to Cooper in any record that I could find...

One reason Cooper could have wanted the door open and stairs down so early may have had nothing to do with jumping, but merely having an escape hole to exit the plane on the ground, in case something went south for him in the front of the plane.

It is abundantly clear from crew and other people's testimony that one of Cooper's greatest concerns expressed early along with his initial demands was "fear of Sky Marshalls" or anyone physically interfering with the hijacking. He even expressed those fears to Hancock. As strange as it sounds I think Cooper may have had a fear of being entrapped and enclosed with no easy escape route available. Like wanting your cake and eating it too!         

[georger]

I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?

Or do I have that wrong too!?

Why do we have to hire teams to research what you think or said at the Library of Congress to find out what you think and what you said at 12:89 March 9 1493?  This has been going on for years! It's impossible to follow the Evolution of Bruce Smith.  

Here we are again!!!!!!!!!!!!   Discussing what Bruce Smith said or thinks or did not say or think -  vs DB Cooper.  It never fails. Bruce you have become a bigger more urgent topic than DB Cooper! 

So, did ' his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations' and exceed that of Christopher Columbus ?

Your knowledge of this matter seems to even exceed: 727 pilots and NWO flight operations.  ! 

Bruce's present day (2017) knowledge of the aft stairs ability to be lowered in flight does exceed the knowledge of NWO operations and the three members of the flight crew involved in the 1971 hijacking.  But that is probably due totally to the fact that knowledge of the aft stairs has been widely circulated ever where between here and Pluto since 1971.

No one is questioning the aft stairs debate. What is at stake now is '15 degree flaps' and whether that indicates Cooper was a pilot ... and if Bruce Smith is a genius!

Maybe Cooper paid attention to the flaps as they were preparing for take-off in Portland and estimated the setting to be 15 degrees.

I tend to think this was a cold read on Cooper's part. A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number. Rataczak did the same thing when asking where they could stop for fuel, and Cooper picked the inland spot instead of an airport closer to the coast.

If that's the case I wish we had a sample of it - video, text, anything! I have wondered the very same thing but could never find an example to cite.

If that is true it could modify the whole status of Cooper from active to passive.

Please post any example you can find!

[Bruce A. Smith]

From Marty:

... A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number...

That's not what Rataczak told me. His words were: "When Cooper told me to set the flaps at fifteen, I knew he knew something about  airplanes. The 727 is the only Boeing product that has a predent setting of fifteen degrees." Or words to that effect.

[Shutter]

I think the reason for the lack of discussion with the configuration of the plane is the fact of it being accepted. the stairs were a different story. they switch to 30 degree's to slow the plane down further while he fumbles with the stairs. the flaps set at 30 only last about five minutes after they realize it will burn even more fuel. I believe they switch back to 15 when they start climbing to 10,000.

A wild guess could be Cooper watching the stairs come down from the tarmac thinking the they were lowered from the cockpit when it's actually the stew lowering them. this of course would mean Cooper has never been inside a 727 for any flights in the past.

was he smart enough to cover all these angles, or was he dumb enough to get himself killed over the crime? criminals always make critical error's, that's how they get caught. some work years preparing for it only to be caught with the critical error, or oversight.

Cooper could of easily asked for the cloud levels, or to drop the altitude if he was really looking for the key position to jump. why do it half ass, or did he screw up missing his original jump location? you would think a pilot would ask these types of questions..life saving questions.

[georger]

From Marty:

... A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number...

That's not what Rataczak told me. His words were: "When Cooper told me to set the flaps at fifteen, I knew he knew something about  airplanes. The 727 is the only Boeing product that has a predent setting of fifteen degrees." Or words to that effect.

Yes, that is your 'fallback position'. What was the time of this exchange? Because it is well known Rataczak has always testified (eg 11/24/71) "Rataczak added that at no time did he have any direct contact with or observe the hijacker."

Anderson says: "and at about 8:05 pm I called the hijacker on the interphone and inquired if he could hear ok and whether there was anything they could do for him? The hijacker responded in the negative and the crew decided against any more tests or contacts until they arrived at Reno". 11/24/71

And at 6:21pm it was Mucklow who communicated with Anderson for Cooper saying " ...... trim the plane to 15 .....". She never said 'flaps to 15 degrees'.

Maybe Rataczak was confused about who was doing/saying what 40 years later when talking to you?

Moreover, it was Scott who communicated all of this to ATC saying "flaps to 15 degrees". Somebody is doing a lot of interpretation in these communications back and forth with Mucklow, for Cooper. We have "negotiable currency" vs. 'American negotiable currency' being communicated for a hijacker several stews have described as being Latin. Now we have '15 degree flaps' vs 'trim the plane to 15' vs. 'set the flaps at fifteen'.

And now you want to insist Rataczak personally talked to Cooper who said 'set the flaps at fifteen'.   

Rataczak's testimony is: ""At no time did he have any direct contact with or observe the hijacker." It is Anderson who called to the back at 8:05 and personally talked to Cooper!

[377]

Georger raises a point which I think about all the time: the accuracy of statements purported to have been made by DBC. We really don't know for sure. I thought he had examined a packing card based on a statement Tosaw made. If DBC quickly located a rig packing card it would tell me a huge amount about his familiarity with NB parachute rigs, but it turns out that event cannot be independently verified. We attribute all these things to Cooper based on what he allegedly said, but the accounts may be inaccurate. I really do wish Bruce could do time travel and remote viewing to clear up all these points. 

377

[georger]

Georger raises a point which I think about all the time: the accuracy of statements purported to have been made by DBC. We really don't know for sure. I thought he had examined a packing card based on a statement Tosaw made. If DBC quickly located a rig packing card it would tell me a huge amount about his familiarity with NB parachute rigs, but it turns out that event cannot be independently verified. We attribute all these things to Cooper based on what he allegedly said, but the accounts may be inaccurate. I really do wish Bruce could do time travel and remote viewing to clear up all these points. 

377

We have many examples of key phrases changing form in the hands of different crew members. Every crew member's version of Cooper's original demands is different, in their sworn testimony to the FBI after the hijacking. This is normal variance ... fits the bell curve. Also, Cooper relied on different crew members differently. Hancock's testimony is surprising to me in that Cooper relied on her (the senior stew) for absolute assurance there were no sky marshals on board  -  and the crew really was going to cooperate. Hancock all but describes this as Cooper being desperate for reassurance. Likewise we learn it was Anderson playing a major role in communicating to the back to the stews, and then directly with Cooper during the 8:05 exchange. (It was not Rataczak! Rataczak was flying the plane.). There was a lot of interpreting going on between the crew and the back and the outside world.
 

[FLYJACK]

The Airstairs…  Operational note.

According to FBI docs, Cooper was shown by Tina how to operate the Airstairs via main panel.

The B727 Airstairs are operated by opening a hinged panel and using a lever, that lever has a button on top that must be pressed. Cooper’s first attempt to lower the Airstairs failed. (Perhaps it was too dark to see the release button on top of the lever).

The normal operation via the main control lowers the stairs first by gravity and via hydraulic assist at mid point. They normally lock in position at the top and bottom.

The secondary “Emergency Release” is a small door next to the main panel with finger holes to pull panel and detach completely. That small door, had the placard attached by rivets/screws. The emergency release is a pull which shears the locks and drops the Airstairs via gravity.

The “emergency” placard was found detached from the emergency door, that small (plastic) emergency door may still be out there near the Placard location.

The Airstair red light indicator came on in the cockpit, but it ONLY indicates that the Airstairs are NOT LOCKED in UP or DOWN position. (in 727 manual)

An amber light indicates that Stairs are NOT UP and NOT LOCKED. (in 727 manual) (I haven't found an Amber light mentioned)

Green Light indicates DOWN and LOCKED. (in 727 manual)


The emergency release only releases the UP position locks, meant to be used on the ground it relies on gravity to drop the Airstairs.
At speed a gravity drop may not have opened the Airstairs much and it would have been a tight and violent environment for Mr....


To clarify, the main control lever unlocks, free fall and hydraulic assists. The emergency release only unlocks and free fall.


It is not clear if Cooper eventually got the main control working or just the Emergency release but the Emergency door with that Placard was removed.

The FBI may be holding the details about the hijacker's Airstair use from the public as only the hijacker would have that knowledge.



Take Away..

Cooper did not have experience with B727 Airstair operation.

The “emergency” placard find and the the cockpit Airstairs light that lit red ONLY (indicating UNLOCK) suggests that the Emergency Airstair release was deployed and not the main control. A red and amber light indicates main control use.

If so, the stairs would have free fallen without hydraulic assist to the point which the airflow at speed held them up. In this situation, the opening at the end of the Airstairs would have been small and the environment violent navigating to the end.


The found position of the Placard indicates the point at which Cooper accessed that detachable “Emergency Release” door (Red Light in cockpit). From there a potential LZ can be constructed working South.


What is a reasonable timeframe between using the emergency release and exiting the plane.

[377]

Good discussion about the various alternatives for airstair lowering Flyjack. Your info about which lights would be activated matches what my 727 manual says. Here is some more info I posted on the door mechanisms. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You ask: "What is a reasonable timeframe between using the emergency release and exiting the plane."


Hard to say. I'd speculate the DBC wanted to get out fast, but that's just a guess.

377

[FLYJACK]

727 Safety card with "emergency" operation.. outer door with placard detaches

[andrade1812]

From Marty:

... A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number...

That's not what Rataczak told me. His words were: "When Cooper told me to set the flaps at fifteen, I knew he knew something about  airplanes. The 727 is the only Boeing product that has a predent setting of fifteen degrees." Or words to that effect.

I've watched the entire Rataczak DVD and all his interviews I could find, and did not find the exchange I was thinking of, now I'm worried I'm remembering a reenactment instead. Sorry. I'll keep looking just to make sure.