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[377]

G wrote: "Gray now selling shirts on his Cooper site - ONLY $385.00 a pop! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Dont forget to sign up for your Racehorse>  Click here to continue shopping."


Gray is smart. He knew we would be needing a new, more hip, Hugh Hefner and he has positioned himself to inherit that now vacant throne. No mansions, no Bunnies, just hip trips, hangouts, racehorses, expensive togs and Bourbon tours. Hail to the King. We knew him when he was a commoner, whirling around the edges of the Vortex, throwing FOIA meat scraps to the sharks within.

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[377]

Gray's "hipper than you are" store: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I can buy a dozen belts at Marshalls or Ross for the price of his True Belt. Do the lesser belts brand me as uncool? Ask me how much I care. The savings buy more jumps, and jumps, which used to be very cool, are still slightly cool. Really only slightly. If it isn't a wingsuit jump flown within inches of deadly granite it is only slightly cool.

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[Robert99]

On your first paragraph above, the airliner was not actually assigned a specific route as is the normal case for IFR operations today as well as in 1971.  The flight crew was told prior to take-off that they were free to do anything that they needed to do and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  It was more or less assumed that they would generally follow V-23 south and ATC told the airliner that they would keep other aircraft more than 4000 feet from them vertically.  Since the airliner was at 10,000 feet, this basically meant that there would not be other aircraft below them and that any aircraft above them would be at 14,000 feet or higher.

As you have probably noticed, there are 19 redactions (if I remember correctly) in the ATC radio transcript for the flight from SEATAC to the Fort Jones VORTAC in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center.  These redactions removed ever single bit of information that would help pinpoint the location of the airliner while in the Seattle ATC area.  There are no redactions whatsoever in the radio transcripts for SEATAC tower, Oakland Center, and Reno tower.

There are a number of reasons, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, for believing that the airliner did fly from the Malay Intersection direct to the Canby Intersection.  During this off-airway (but still in controlled airspace) flight, the airliner would be flying vectors provided by the appropriate Seattle ATC sector controller.  At the same time, the controller was busy trying to direct several different aircraft to intercept and trail the airliner, so he was quite busy.

"The plane was where the radar said it was." ---MGAsr

We read through most of your writings on the flight path, including your thread (last summer?) with your estimates and calculations. He has consistently refused to weigh in on the topic, and believes only the radar data can solve the mystery.

Your father is absolute correct in saying that "something" produced those radar returns, other things being equal.

My understanding is that the USAF radar facility at McChord AFB was a joint use operation and the one that the FAA also used for air traffic control purposes.  There is a document in the FBI files that was prepared by an FBI agent who indicates that he picked up "tapes" from that facility.  If he actually picked up tapes, did the FBI have the equipment to read those radar tapes?

But I think I can say that under absolutely no conditions would an airline pilot and crew fly the track shown on the "FBI map" or on TC's recent map.  The airline crew apparently did not have trouble flying a specific track before they got to the Malay Intersection or after they got south of Portland.

How about taking a look at the original jump diagram, and its supporting paperwork, and see if you can estimate the time that chart was prepared. 

[MeyerLouie]

On your first paragraph above, the airliner was not actually assigned a specific route as is the normal case for IFR operations today as well as in 1971.  The flight crew was told prior to take-off that they were free to do anything that they needed to do and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  It was more or less assumed that they would generally follow V-23 south and ATC told the airliner that they would keep other aircraft more than 4000 feet from them vertically.  Since the airliner was at 10,000 feet, this basically meant that there would not be other aircraft below them and that any aircraft above them would be at 14,000 feet or higher.

As you have probably noticed, there are 19 redactions (if I remember correctly) in the ATC radio transcript for the flight from SEATAC to the Fort Jones VORTAC in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center.  These redactions removed ever single bit of information that would help pinpoint the location of the airliner while in the Seattle ATC area.  There are no redactions whatsoever in the radio transcripts for SEATAC tower, Oakland Center, and Reno tower.

There are a number of reasons, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, for believing that the airliner did fly from the Malay Intersection direct to the Canby Intersection.  During this off-airway (but still in controlled airspace) flight, the airliner would be flying vectors provided by the appropriate Seattle ATC sector controller.  At the same time, the controller was busy trying to direct several different aircraft to intercept and trail the airliner, so he was quite busy.

"The plane was where the radar said it was." ---MGAsr

I've noticed that everywhere I go, there I am.  Is that a common thing, or is it just me?

[andrade1812]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

[377]

Didn't someone claim that the ATC transcript redactions were simply traffic between ATC and other planes?

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[georger]

On your first paragraph above, the airliner was not actually assigned a specific route as is the normal case for IFR operations today as well as in 1971.  The flight crew was told prior to take-off that they were free to do anything that they needed to do and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  It was more or less assumed that they would generally follow V-23 south and ATC told the airliner that they would keep other aircraft more than 4000 feet from them vertically.  Since the airliner was at 10,000 feet, this basically meant that there would not be other aircraft below them and that any aircraft above them would be at 14,000 feet or higher.

As you have probably noticed, there are 19 redactions (if I remember correctly) in the ATC radio transcript for the flight from SEATAC to the Fort Jones VORTAC in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center.  These redactions removed ever single bit of information that would help pinpoint the location of the airliner while in the Seattle ATC area.  There are no redactions whatsoever in the radio transcripts for SEATAC tower, Oakland Center, and Reno tower.

There are a number of reasons, which have been discussed at length elsewhere, for believing that the airliner did fly from the Malay Intersection direct to the Canby Intersection.  During this off-airway (but still in controlled airspace) flight, the airliner would be flying vectors provided by the appropriate Seattle ATC sector controller.  At the same time, the controller was busy trying to direct several different aircraft to intercept and trail the airliner, so he was quite busy.

"The plane was where the radar said it was." ---MGAsr

We read through most of your writings on the flight path, including your thread (last summer?) with your estimates and calculations. He has consistently refused to weigh in on the topic, and believes only the radar data can solve the mystery.

Your father is absolute correct in saying that "something" produced those radar returns, other things being equal.

My understanding is that the USAF radar facility at McChord AFB was a joint use operation and the one that the FAA also used for air traffic control purposes.  There is a document in the FBI files that was prepared by an FBI agent who indicates that he picked up "tapes" from that facility.  If he actually picked up tapes, did the FBI have the equipment to read those radar tapes?

But I think I can say that under absolutely no conditions would an airline pilot and crew fly the track shown on the "FBI map" or on TC's recent map.  The airline crew apparently did not have trouble flying a specific track before they got to the Malay Intersection or after they got south of Portland.

How about taking a look at the original jump diagram, and its supporting paperwork, and see if you can estimate the time that chart was prepared.

Where in the "FBI files" is an agent picking up Air Force radar tapes ... from McChord ?

Can you post the file or give a url to this ? Can you quote the passages from the file?

Why would the FBI be picking up radar tapes? Who would read them! Oh! Himmelsbach with his Sony Decoder Ring fresh from a cracker jack box This is completely counter to the story released by the TAG Group people at McChord, who as a matter of coincidence were interviewed?! What's the next iteration - where is this going! ?? The FBI drew the NWA Search Map? Maybe the FBI flew the frckin plane and the socalled crew were all FBI studio standins?   Are these Sony radar tape Decoders/Readers used by the FBI available on eBay? Show us one! Just who in the FBI used this equipment back in '71?

This is getting a little far fetched dohn cha think?
 

How is the Russian Moon Base going? Any recent contacts with NFL players and owners there?
 

[georger]

Didn't someone claim that the ATC transcript redactions were simply traffic between ATC and other planes?

377

Yea someone claimed that. Someone also cliamed that DB Cooper was Duane Weber!

These "claims" are never backed up by any evidence, but they sure get repeated by Cooper Press Corps reporters!

[georger]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

Who was your Dad that he is/was an expert on this?

For that matter, who are you!?

[andrade1812]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

Who was your Dad that he is/was an expert on this?

For that matter, who are you!?

I'm just some guy, a more detailed biography would bring [more] ridicule. My father was an Air Force pilot who did extensive parachute training; he was also an airline pilot after the military and flew the 727 and other jets for United Airlines.

[georger]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

Who was your Dad that he is/was an expert on this?

For that matter, who are you!?

I'm just some guy, a more detailed biography would bring [more] ridicule. My father was an Air Force pilot who did extensive parachute training; he was also an airline pilot after the military and flew the 727 and other jets for United Airlines.

Ridicule is as ridicule does. This however is fitting a very familiar pattern - people come out of the woodwork with a story, which contradicts or violates established facts in the case. Its strange how these people never read a page at Dropzone, but begin stating "alternative facts"!

Why is it my fault? Why are you blaming me? Do you have a book at stake or something"?

Who at McChord did your father talk to about the radar tapes? Either he did or he didn't. This question is Non-optional/Obligatory, sir.

My father was a career Air Force pilot. 30+ years. Retired at an Air Force base in Georgia in '66. That's not my fault! 
   

[377]

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377

[georger]

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

 

[andrade1812]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

Who was your Dad that he is/was an expert on this?

For that matter, who are you!?

I'm just some guy, a more detailed biography would bring [more] ridicule. My father was an Air Force pilot who did extensive parachute training; he was also an airline pilot after the military and flew the 727 and other jets for United Airlines.

Ridicule is as ridicule does. This however is fitting a very familiar pattern - people come out of the woodwork with a story, which contradicts or violates established facts in the case. Its strange how these people never read a page at Dropzone, but begin stating "alternative facts"!

Why is it my fault? Why are you blaming me? Do you have a book at stake or something"?

Who at McChord did your father talk to about the radar tapes? Either he did or he didn't. This question is Non-optional-Obligatory.

My father was a career Air Force pilot. 30+ years. Retired at an Air Force base in Georgia in '66.
 

I meant the "ridicule" thing in jest, my background is unremarkable and I admit I'm over my head in many aspects of this case. That's why I'm here; to learn.

I am not claiming the tapes were taken by the FBI, R99 said the FBI files say that. R99 simply asked if the FBI would be able to read the data on the tapes *if they did do this* and the answer is "probably" because this equipment was, in my father's experience, accessible and widespread.

[georger]

The tapes were from Sony, from what Senior can remember, and the FBI would have been able to read the data on the tapes by '71. He doesn't remember makes and models, but there was nothing "special" about the equipment when he graduated USAFA in '66. He did look at TC's "Escape" pdf, and has nothing positive to say about it. Neither of us believes a precision jump was possible in those conditions.

Who was your Dad that he is/was an expert on this?

For that matter, who are you!?

I'm just some guy, a more detailed biography would bring [more] ridicule. My father was an Air Force pilot who did extensive parachute training; he was also an airline pilot after the military and flew the 727 and other jets for United Airlines.

Ridicule is as ridicule does. This however is fitting a very familiar pattern - people come out of the woodwork with a story, which contradicts or violates established facts in the case. Its strange how these people never read a page at Dropzone, but begin stating "alternative facts"!

Why is it my fault? Why are you blaming me? Do you have a book at stake or something"?

Who at McChord did your father talk to about the radar tapes? Either he did or he didn't. This question is Non-optional-Obligatory.

My father was a career Air Force pilot. 30+ years. Retired at an Air Force base in Georgia in '66.
 

I meant the "ridicule" thing in jest, my background is unremarkable and I admit I'm over my head in many aspects of this case. That's why I'm here.

I am not claiming the tapes were taken by the FBI, R99 said the FBI files say that. R99 simply asked if the FBI would be able to read the data on the tapes *if they did do this* and the answer is "probably" because this equipment was, in my father's experience, accessible and widespread.

OK. Now we are getting somewhere. I apoligise if necessary.

I dont know anything about this equipment or Robert thoughts on this he has shared with you privately? I do know the Unit at McChord that is said to have processed the radar tapes - for everyone concerned. They issued charts and a report, maybe reports plural. Recipients included the FAA, FBI, and NWO (Soderlind). That is assumed to be the origin of the NWA Search Map some call the FBI Search Map (the white laCenter based map). I dont know why the FBI would be given the tapes to read and interpret? That's brand new.

I dont know what else to say. Thanks.

well ... give us some names or anything else you can, anything that can be checked out, names to interview... you know the drill ........ and again Thanks.