New Forum & News Updates

[Shutter]

Meyer, please back away from personal attacks. If you have an issue with Tom please contact.hkm directly. We are all in on this together so let's work the problem...

Shutter

[georger]

Let's compare where things were vs where they are, at present. In a word, there has been a wholesale up-scaling and improvement in the Cooper discussion, since 2006 when most of us walked in. And, Tom Kaye and his group and others, including the owner of this website, are responsible for that and deserve credit for that improvement.

The whole Cooper discussion has become more professional, more specific, more fact-oriented, and more complex than it was back in 2006 (and before). People are simply better informed! Cranks with bogus suspects have less of a foothold and receive far less attention than they previously did. The reservoir of "facts" about the Cooper case has expanded exponentially vs what it was, and Tom Kaye and his team are partly responsible for that. Tom set a new tone to the whole Cooper debate, for the better.

The FBI has been releasing more documents through several sources. This has helped define the Cooper case better and adds fact-based perspective.

Today opinion matters less and facts matter more. Bad actors and persistent con artists with their personal petty agendas matter less than they did before, due mainly to the new fact-based discussions which have evolved since 2006/07. Tom Kaye has been at the forefront of that development, and I am personally glad for it, and I thank Tom for this. Tom has not only supplied some high quality research results but sound guidance vs. where things were before. That is a solid accomplishment.

  

 

[377]

Amen George. Well said.

377

[MeyerLouie]

Meyer,

Well given the fact you have at least a masters or PhD I am truly amazed at your comments. Since you are officially part of the community, you know that ad hominem attacks are frowned upon. Real Science attacks the data not the person. I have always been respectful to everyone on this forum and their ideas including Robert Blevins. Since getting involved almost 10 years ago a lot has changed. With new information comes new ideas and theories and I can guarantee that my interpretations will change with new data.

I agree with you that having new high level researchers would bring added dimension. To that end we only did minimal investigation into the 100K tie particles analyzed by McCrone and made the data public on our website. Surprisingly, I have not seen anyone step up and take a stab at analysis. McCrone's reputation is beyond reproach so that data should give a solid footing to any investigation. I also agree with you that much of what I said years ago is wrong. A lot of what I say today will also likely be proven wrong with new information in the future. In my world of science that's the way it is supposed to work.

Georger invited me into this world so I am sure he could dig up some new blood. In the mean time I await published interpretations from others.

Tom Kaye

No Tom, it is because of my PhD that I make my comments about you.  Scholarly research in an academic setting, that's what I came from. 

While I hope that your research with "the tie" bears fruit, it is common knowledge there is no proof that Cooper even owned the tie.  The tie could have come from anywhere.  In addition, with respect to tie, the chain of evidence was compromised.   What did those FBI agents do with that tie those 3 days?
And whose to say those rare earth elements aren't all that rare, Cooper may have worked on his TV the night before the hijacking.

But in spite of all that, regardless of those possibilities, I don't want to be a complete party pooper.  I truly hope your research with the tie particles brings some good, useful, new information.  I truly hope something comes from it.  I wish you all the best with that.

It's actually good that we finally talk face to face.  I've been bad-mouthing you for quite a while.  When I have a problem with someone, I'd rather say what I need to say, face-to-face.  It's always better to talk to a guy than talk about a guy.

I'll tone it down Tom, I said what I needed to say. 

I'm trying to come out of my shell.  I'm really shy, it's really hard for me to express my opinions...... okay, maybe not. 

Meyer

[georger]

Meyer,

Well given the fact you have at least a masters or PhD I am truly amazed at your comments. Since you are officially part of the community, you know that ad hominem attacks are frowned upon. Real Science attacks the data not the person. I have always been respectful to everyone on this forum and their ideas including Robert Blevins. Since getting involved almost 10 years ago a lot has changed. With new information comes new ideas and theories and I can guarantee that my interpretations will change with new data.

I agree with you that having new high level researchers would bring added dimension. To that end we only did minimal investigation into the 100K tie particles analyzed by McCrone and made the data public on our website. Surprisingly, I have not seen anyone step up and take a stab at analysis. McCrone's reputation is beyond reproach so that data should give a solid footing to any investigation. I also agree with you that much of what I said years ago is wrong. A lot of what I say today will also likely be proven wrong with new information in the future. In my world of science that's the way it is supposed to work.

Georger invited me into this world so I am sure he could dig up some new blood. In the mean time I await published interpretations from others.

Tom Kaye

No Tom, it is because of my PhD that I make my comments about you.  Scholarly research in an academic setting, that's what I came from. 

While I hope that your research with "the tie" bears fruit, it is common knowledge there is no proof that Cooper even owned the tie.  The tie could have come from anywhere.  In addition, with respect to tie, the chain of evidence was compromised.   What did those FBI agents do with that tie those 3 days?
And whose to say those rare earth elements aren't all that rare, Cooper may have worked on his TV the night before the hijacking.

But in spite of all that, regardless of those possibilities, I don't want to be a complete party pooper.  I truly hope your research with the tie particles brings some good, useful, new information.  I truly hope something comes from it.  I wish you all the best with that.

It's actually good that we finally talk face to face.  I've been bad-mouthing you for quite a while.  When I have a problem with someone, I'd rather say what I need to say, face-to-face.  It's always better to talk to a guy than talk about a guy.

I'll tone it down Tom, I said what I needed to say. 

I'm trying to come out of my shell.  I'm really shy, it's really hard for me to express my opinions...... okay, maybe not. 

Meyer

Meyer as you know very well, analysis has to begin somewhere. No, we dont know the provenance of the tie, but a basic assay of what is on the tie could be valuable - maybe crucial! Tom and McChrone have gone a long way toward providing that assay. Yes, other tests could be done which might help better define what has been found on the tie. One thing conspicuously absent are any biologicals (spores etc) which could connect the site to a geographic area and season. (The Cooper case seems to be FULL of these inconvenient roadblocks; as if the gods intended nobody know anything solid about Cooper so as to nail him down!). Apparently the tie was manufactured in 1969?

We have come a long long way, Meyer. In a sense we are all in the same canoe, inescapably. We all want to get across the lake! It's this boat or swim, I guess!     

[MeyerLouie]

Meyer,

Well given the fact you have at least a masters or PhD I am truly amazed at your comments. Since you are officially part of the community, you know that ad hominem attacks are frowned upon. Real Science attacks the data not the person. I have always been respectful to everyone on this forum and their ideas including Robert Blevins. Since getting involved almost 10 years ago a lot has changed. With new information comes new ideas and theories and I can guarantee that my interpretations will change with new data.

I agree with you that having new high level researchers would bring added dimension. To that end we only did minimal investigation into the 100K tie particles analyzed by McCrone and made the data public on our website. Surprisingly, I have not seen anyone step up and take a stab at analysis. McCrone's reputation is beyond reproach so that data should give a solid footing to any investigation. I also agree with you that much of what I said years ago is wrong. A lot of what I say today will also likely be proven wrong with new information in the future. In my world of science that's the way it is supposed to work.

Georger invited me into this world so I am sure he could dig up some new blood. In the mean time I await published interpretations from others.

Tom Kaye

No Tom, it is because of my PhD that I make my comments about you.  Scholarly research in an academic setting, that's what I came from. 

While I hope that your research with "the tie" bears fruit, it is common knowledge there is no proof that Cooper even owned the tie.  The tie could have come from anywhere.  In addition, with respect to tie, the chain of evidence was compromised.   What did those FBI agents do with that tie those 3 days?
And whose to say those rare earth elements aren't all that rare, Cooper may have worked on his TV the night before the hijacking.

But in spite of all that, regardless of those possibilities, I don't want to be a complete party pooper.  I truly hope your research with the tie particles brings some good, useful, new information.  I truly hope something comes from it.  I wish you all the best with that.

It's actually good that we finally talk face to face.  I've been bad-mouthing you for quite a while.  When I have a problem with someone, I'd rather say what I need to say, face-to-face.  It's always better to talk to a guy than talk about a guy.

I'll tone it down Tom, I said what I needed to say. 

I'm trying to come out of my shell.  I'm really shy, it's really hard for me to express my opinions...... okay, maybe not. 

Meyer

Meyer as you know very well, analysis has to begin somewhere. No, we dont know the provenance of the tie, but a basic assay of what is on the tie could be valuable - maybe crucial! Tom and McChrone have gone a long way toward providing that assay. Yes, other tests could be done which might help better define what has been found on the tie. One thing conspicuously absent are any biologicals (spores etc) which could connect the site to a geographic area and season. (The Cooper case seems to be FULL of these convenient roadblocks; as if the gods intended nobody know anything solid about Cooper so as to nail him down!). Apparently the tie was manufactured in 1969?

We have come a long long way, Meyer. In a sense we are all in the same canoe, inescapably. We all want to get across the lake! It's this boat or swim, I guess!     

That's true, Georger.  Thanks for putting it in proper perspective.  We're all in this together, and progress has been made, all those little steps have become a big step. I'll try to remember that from now on.  Though it may not seem like it at times, I really, truly like being a team player and doing things and projects with my Cooper colleagues.  It's been fun working with so many of you over the years on various things.  The 2011 Symposium in Portland, the WSHM project, R99 and I getting together at Tina Bar a couple of times, Bruce and I driving down to the Ariel Days Party several times and the drive to Amboy, Bob Sailshaw and I going to Tina Bar, connecting with Mark Bennett and everybody else at the Tacoma party, calling Shutter from Tina Bar every time I go to Tina Bar, having dinner with Geoffrey Gray and all in Tacoma, the phone calls with Jerry Thomas, Jo, Kermit, Bruce, even had a long phone conversation with Brian Ingram after the 2011 Symposium, the Travel Channel/Expedition Unknown experience-- it's all been great.  More good times still to come -- the Caterpillar Island project is coming right up.  You're right Georger, we have come a long ways, and we're all in it together.  I will try to remember that from now on.

Meyer

[377]

Before we attack based on degrees or lack thereof remember Pons and Fleischmann, academic researchers with impeccable credentials who thought they had discovered COLD FUSION.

To me, TK and his seldom mentioned sleuth partner Al Stone represent the best in tech, scrappy resourceful people using their wits and self-refurbed early gen cast off analytical tools to do science in their garages. Sure their early DBC findings have been expanded and amplified by follow on scientists with much larger budgets, but don't forget who told us there was something very unique to look at on the tie. And don't forget Carol Abraczinskas either. She is a key part of the Citizen Sleuths team and also presented a tight and very well researched lecture on the Dan Cooper comic book connection. Good people. Good motives. They share their findings. They accept criticism. What's not to like?

I wish we could all get along better. Meyer is a good guy and a friend. TK is a good guy and a friend. Surely bridges can be built and venom can dissipate. The Dropzone wackos are gone and we who remain really have so much in common. A little respect and tolerance will go a long way.

Peace,
377

[georger]

Before we attack based on degrees or lack thereof remember Pons and Fleischmann, academic researchers with impeccable credentials who thought they had discovered COLD FUSION.

To me, TK and his seldom mentioned sleuth partner Al Stone represent the best in tech, scrappy resourceful people using their wits and self-refurbed early gen cast off analytical tools to do science in their garages. Sure their early DBC findings have been expanded and amplified by follow on scientists with much larger budgets, but don't forget who told us there was something very unique to look at on the tie. And don't forget Carol Abraczinskas either. She is a key part of the Citizen Sleuths team and also presented a tight and very well researched lecture on the Dan Cooper comic book connection. Good people. Good motives. They share their findings. They accept criticism. What's not to like?

I wish we could all get along better. Meyer is a good guy and a friend. TK is a good guy and a friend. Surely bridges can be built and venom can dissipate. The Dropzone wackos are gone and we who remain really have so much in common. A little respect and tolerance will go a long way.

Peace,
377

 Pons and Fleischmann!? OMG!                           

[Robert99]

Does anyone know if the FBI, or anyone else, ever did a psychological profile of DB Cooper?

If not, could we possibly talk some qualified profiler into doing one?

[georger]

Does anyone know if the FBI, or anyone else, ever did a psychological profile of DB Cooper?

If not, could we possibly talk some qualified profiler into doing one?

Im sure somebody took a stab at it. FAA or FBI. Do you know a "qualified" profiler?

[Robert99]

Does anyone know if the FBI, or anyone else, ever did a psychological profile of DB Cooper?

If not, could we possibly talk some qualified profiler into doing one?

Im sure somebody took a stab at it. FAA or FBI. Do you know a "qualified" profiler?

I don't know a profiler.  Could some of the Law Enforcement people here make some suggestions?  Recommendations could be made by PM to Georger or Shutter.

[georger]

Does anyone know if the FBI, or anyone else, ever did a psychological profile of DB Cooper?

If not, could we possibly talk some qualified profiler into doing one?

Im sure somebody took a stab at it. FAA or FBI. Do you know a "qualified" profiler?

I don't know a profiler.  Could some of the Law Enforcement people here make some suggestions?  Recommendations could be made by PM to Georger or Shutter.

Well, I do know some people who have done 'profiling' for the FBI and other agencies. As you might guess there is a wide difference in credentials and case matter (experience) each has worked on, etc. I mean even Bruce claims to be a 'profiler' - he claims the expertise based on the fact he once worked as an orderly in a psychiatric hospital, or something like that? An FAA psychiatrist spoke his piece during the hijacking and we know what came of that.  Maybe somebody here can recommend some willing victim!   My guess is there will be disagreement about any appraisal?

[377]

"qualified profiler"

I'm skeptical. Often these are like repackaged psychics with a psychology degree thrown in.

But don't let this spoilsport engineer spoil a productive seance. 

377

[Robert99]

"qualified profiler"

I'm skeptical. Often these are like repackaged psychics with a psychology degree thrown in.

But don't let this spoilsport engineer spoil a productive seance. 

377

There have certainly been enough "unproductive séances" in the Cooper matter.

[georger]

"qualified profiler"

I'm skeptical. Often these are like repackaged psychics with a psychology degree thrown in.

But don't let this spoilsport engineer spoil a productive seance. 

377

Much depends on what the "profile" is being used for. (a) Identification, Search, and capture. Distinctive traits that could lead to identification and capture. (eg. Uni Bomber). (b) A clinical profile for a treatment plan. (c) clinical profile to meet requirements for support and remediation. (d) educational profiling for placement ... (e) Testing regime profile. (f) Genetic profile and personalty profile cross referenced looking for specific linkage (medical). (g) and the list goes on.

The problem with Cooper is the sampling is skewed and uncertain. Nobody can agree on socalled facts! The FAA psychiatrist 'pigeon holed' Cooper trying to predict what Cooper would do; his prediction was 100% wrong! He may have been given bad or skewed information. Cooper didn't fit the profile the psychiatrist was working from..

It's difficult to profile somebody 'in absentia' based on other people's interpretations.

In the case of the Unibomber, for example, it took a family member recognising key phrases in the bomber's recently published manifesto that matched the bomber's previous 'key phrases' in personal statements and writings from a former time and place going back years.  So far as I know Cooper used no 'unique key phrases' that could be matched ??

ps: I would think any serious profiler would have to do some interviewing of Tina and Flo.