Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1819807 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2910 on: February 08, 2017, 01:52:10 AM »
I'm a little hesitant to jump in here... but I probably know the Gunther text better than anyone, so here we go...

Other than the parachute color, which is attributed to Clara, the vast majority of the errors in the hijacking narrative are found in the second chapter of the book. Gunther is a journalist and uses in-text citations. Most of chapter two is original research, newspaper articles, interviews with FBI agents, Earl Cossey is cited, Himmelsbach is cited, etc. This pattern continues throughout the book, and there's a fascinating exchange between Gunther and a Seattle Field Office SA (forget the name, I detail this exchange in my book) where they are talking about the contradicting eyewitness reports, specifically regarding what color the tie was. The FBI had the tie, and knew what color it was, so this caught my attention.

For very rational reasons, LE controls the flow of information regarding crimes. They omit information or give misinformation to verify the veracity of a story. The FBI dealt with hundreds of false Cooper confessions by asking "what item of clothing was left on the plane." It shouldn't be controversial to suggest this happened with Gunther.

Now, the danger here is that every contradiction or mistake becomes answered with a 'just so' story from a convenient FBI boogeyman. So, in the end, I accept that eyewitness testimony comes with baggage---contradictions and mistakes---and should be used in conjunction with physical evidence to come up with testable hypotheses.  And I believe there's some actual investigating yet to do with Gunther. Pull all the strings, that's what I say.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2911 on: February 08, 2017, 01:59:33 AM »
I'm not sure I follow the misinformation. they usually do that with suspects. Carr, has stated in the past, that most already know that they always withhold things to weed people out.

The files were made on the evening of the hijacking. are you implying these are inaccurate?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 02:02:03 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline dice

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2912 on: February 08, 2017, 02:01:53 AM »
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I'm a little hesitant to jump in here... but I probably know the Gunther text better than anyone, so here we go...

For very rational reasons, LE controls the flow of information regarding crimes.
Sorry to ask...What does 'LE' stand for?
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2913 on: February 08, 2017, 02:06:23 AM »
LE=Law Enforcement

And I'm not saying the FBI files are inaccurate; not sure how that even entered the discussion.

I'm essentially trying to say the same thing Sluggo used to say, there's a lot of misinformation in this case. Whether intentionally spread or not, it's there.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2914 on: February 08, 2017, 02:12:30 AM »
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LE=Law Enforcement

And I'm not saying the FBI files are inaccurate; not sure how that even entered the discussion.

I'm essentially trying to say the same thing Sluggo used to say, there's a lot of misinformation in this case. Whether intentionally spread or not, it's there.


understood, but I don't see what that has to do with this book. Clara claims to know Cooper, so the things she is stating do not appear to be facts. if the FBI investigated Gunther and his book they should of known Clara was telling the truth if they were publicly giving false information? we all know a lot of false information is flying around.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2915 on: February 08, 2017, 02:17:21 AM »
Ralph H. puts Cooper on the wrong side of the plane in one series (hijacker who got away, I believe) tons of myths are born with unsolved crimes...Cooper printed his name on the ticket....he had a gun...he never took his glasses off etc.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2916 on: February 08, 2017, 02:19:30 AM »
So Gunther clearly cites Clara in the text. It doesn't take long to highlight the parts of the book which come directly from her... And it's very obvious he got a very incomplete story from her, and he had to fill in the gaps with a lot of independent research. Clara's testimony is about twenty pages, maybe thirty, of the whole book. Most of it is spent on their time after the hijacking.

In regards to the FBI investigation, I admit, I have no idea how thoroughly they looked into the story. I'd love to see their files on this interaction. I've only seen one report: Himmelsbach on Gunther... and that was from the book we don't talk about.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2917 on: February 08, 2017, 02:28:16 AM »
I don't know what to say. they investigated it, and nothing happened? Ralph seems to have a grudge more than Cooper IMO. as dead set as he was in finding Cooper, it appears it wasn't in that book..he really wanted closure in this case. I could call Jerry Thomas, but I'm not sure how much truth I would get. he's close with Ralph, but always hesitant to help, at least with including Ralph.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2918 on: February 08, 2017, 02:41:12 AM »
What was said in Roberts book? the DZ shows that Robert didn't read the book until December of 2013? actually, he ordered in in late November....don't know when he read it..

Quote
On another note: How many of you (*show of hands*) actually own a copy of the Max Gunther book D.B. Cooper - What Really Happened?

I do NOT own a copy, although I have ordered one recently from Amazon. Someone sent me a very interesting document today. It's a list of 'things' from the book, with a list of comparisons. Right now, that's all I can say about it. I don't want to publish it or venture any opinions on it just yet...until I see the Gunther book for myself.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 02:43:45 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2919 on: February 08, 2017, 02:50:49 AM »
377 commented on the book...

Quote
I own a copy. Bought it used on Amazon for a couple of dollars. A fun read but not at all convincing.

377
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2920 on: February 08, 2017, 09:45:15 AM »
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I don't know what to say. they investigated it, and nothing happened? Ralph seems to have a grudge more than Cooper IMO. as dead set as he was in finding Cooper, it appears it wasn't in that book..he really wanted closure in this case. I could call Jerry Thomas, but I'm not sure how much truth I would get. he's close with Ralph, but always hesitant to help, at least with including Ralph.
Let me add, and correct me if I'm wrong.  Ralph was the FBI agent who seemed to be (or tried to be) the public case for Norjack, but he was not the assigned agent.  The case was still assigned to the Seattle office.  Whoever the case agent was at the time would have investigated Max's book, not Ralph.
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2921 on: February 08, 2017, 12:35:39 PM »
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Ralph H. puts Cooper on the wrong side of the plane in one series (hijacker who got away, I believe) tons of myths are born with unsolved crimes...Cooper printed his name on the ticket....he had a gun...he never took his glasses off etc.

Some time ago I spoke with Ralph H. Jerry Thomas had put in a good word for me and Ralph was cordial and responsive. To me, a crucial piece of alleged evidence (which may or may not be a fact) was that DBC pulled at least one rigger packing card. If he did this I am 99.99999% sure he was chute savvy. If you knew how difficult it is to find a packing card on an NB 6 or NB8 rig you'd agree with me. Also, who but chute savvy folks even know that packing cards are stowed in rigs? When I queried Ralph, he said there was no credible evidence that a packing card was pulled. Tina would know. I wish the History Channel folks had asked her. Did Tosaw just make up the packing card incident? Doesn't seem in character for Tosaw.

377

« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 12:38:03 PM by 377 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2922 on: February 08, 2017, 01:20:14 PM »
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What was said in Roberts book? the DZ shows that Robert didn't read the book until December of 2013? actually, he ordered in in late November....don't know when he read it..

Quote
On another note: How many of you (*show of hands*) actually own a copy of the Max Gunther book D.B. Cooper - What Really Happened?

I do NOT own a copy, although I have ordered one recently from Amazon. Someone sent me a very interesting document today. It's a list of 'things' from the book, with a list of comparisons. Right now, that's all I can say about it. I don't want to publish it or venture any opinions on it just yet...until I see the Gunther book for myself.

I don't know the exact quote, all Robert said was something along the lines that Himmelsbach didn't like Gunther, and that Himmelsbach said Gunther changed his story. No details were given.
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2923 on: February 08, 2017, 03:32:43 PM »
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Ralph H. puts Cooper on the wrong side of the plane in one series (hijacker who got away, I believe) tons of myths are born with unsolved crimes...Cooper printed his name on the ticket....he had a gun...he never took his glasses off etc.

Some time ago I spoke with Ralph H. Jerry Thomas had put in a good word for me and Ralph was cordial and responsive. To me, a crucial piece of alleged evidence (which may or may not be a fact) was that DBC pulled at least one rigger packing card. If he did this I am 99.99999% sure he was chute savvy. If you knew how difficult it is to find a packing card on an NB 6 or NB8 rig you'd agree with me. Also, who but chute savvy folks even know that packing cards are stowed in rigs? When I queried Ralph, he said there was no credible evidence that a packing card was pulled. Tina would know. I wish the History Channel folks had asked her. Did Tosaw just make up the packing card incident? Doesn't seem in character for Tosaw.

377

Ckret says there is no mention of the packing card incident in the witness statements - it exists only in Tosaw's book. In addition a review of the witnesses testimony sees commentary about Cooper throwing away a sheet of instructions Tina was given and offered Cooper, but nothing on a packing card.   

Ckret
Jul 9, 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #3528 of 58140 (58153 views)

   
     Re: [snowmman] tosaw: odd comment about why no squawk? [In reply to]    
Tosaw was agent for five years, he left the Bureau in 1956. His description of what happened that night is much more detailed from what I have provided because he made it up. Don't mistake what i am saying here, I think he made an honest attempt to investigate the case but he was also writing a book.

By the early 80's most of the foundational details he writes in his book had been released to the public, or, given his connections, nothing he could not have gleaned from taking an agent out for a few.

Take it for what it is, it's just another piece of the puzzle. I can tell you this from what I have read of Snowmmans post, when Tosaw goes into "new" details, I cannot confirm what he is saying because that is not what the witnesses provided to the FBI.

It is human nature to complete the picture, if you are given A and C, you will create B. I think to a large degree Tosaw put the "B" in DB.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 05:51:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #2924 on: February 08, 2017, 05:12:44 PM »
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I don't know what to say. they investigated it, and nothing happened? Ralph seems to have a grudge more than Cooper IMO. as dead set as he was in finding Cooper, it appears it wasn't in that book..he really wanted closure in this case. I could call Jerry Thomas, but I'm not sure how much truth I would get. he's close with Ralph, but always hesitant to help, at least with including Ralph.
Let me add, and correct me if I'm wrong.  Ralph was the FBI agent who seemed to be (or tried to be) the public case for Norjack, but he was not the assigned agent.  The case was still assigned to the Seattle office.  Whoever the case agent was at the time would have investigated Max's book, not Ralph.

I guess it depends on jurisdiction. it appears that Ralph was everywhere during the period of the money find?