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[Shutter]

a selling point in what way? for the use of the stairs for easy access? a selling point because you can takeoff with the stairs deployed, or that you can jump off them, or that they could be removed for the exit of cargo and personnel?

If Cooper was so dead set sure of the stairs, why did he back down? he was in charge, no?

IMO, it's a possible clue, but not a fact to being involved with the case.

anyone could pickup a gun for the first time and hit the target dead center and quickly become a sharpshooter by luck vs a novice?


prior to Nov. 8th you were rather snarky yourself. kind of odd you have so much anger for "snarky" now? 

Yougottabekiddinme!

[Shutter]

Basically, we have a pilot/engineer/special ops kind of a guy, right?

all three of the above are rather meticulous and you would think they would cover most, or all of the angles.

Cooper had trouble lowering the stairs, and believed they could be lowered from the cockpit. he had Tina show him how. then he gives in with taking off without the stairs deployed. it appears he missed the fact of a bad chute in the bunch, and the missing D rings. and, lets not forget he got the wrong bag. three things that were considered "funny stuff" he left one chute on board, but either used, or tossed the front pack? why not tear apart the dummy chute, or was it a crap shoot he picked the wrong one? 50/50 odds.

IMHO, this sounds like second hand information given to him, and could point to his lack of experience with things.

did the chute really have an X on it? it was missed by a well known skydiver, but he didn't really examine the chute. Cooper did a "cursory' look at the chutes. the bottom line in skydiving is jump pull pin/handle? I know there is much more, but that's the basics for getting on the ground.

wheels down, and flaps at 5 degrees would give him similar results, or even 2 degrees? actually, all flap settings could be used to his benefit.

Then we have his knowledge of direction. fly to Mexico? no given path, no updates on weather, altitude, nothing. the files state "the ground could not be seen" he also gives in once again with his demand of not landing anywhere in the US. it just appears that his bluff was called multiple times, on multiple things in his "master plan" and showed a lack of experience in many ways?

would a special ops kind of a guy miss critical items from above?
would a pilot act in the same manor Cooper presented himself?
would an engineer miscalculate critical parts of the plan?

do we really believe we know who Dan Cooper really was?

[georger]

I just find it contradictory that Bruce doesn't think H is a reliable source then cites H, as a reliable source.
We've had years of commentary about H by certain people, so people's feelings about H are well known. If H knew the CIA knew about 727 stairs what is the source for H's info? Did anyone ever bother to ask him? Thus we are left in the dark once again while H has been stained with unreliability, but now is quoted as a reliable source ... all in the same gulp!   

It's these shifts in POV that I find problematic and difficult to keep up with.

Even though Himmelsbach has made multiple factual errors in his Norjak discourses, and on one occasion has lied - about the letters sent to the media and FBI in the weeks following the hijacking - I don't think I have ever dismissed him totally as a source. Himmelsbach is a mixed bag.

As for his claim that the CIA shared critical information with NWO about the fly-ability of the 727 with the aft stairs deployed, it is buttressed by other information, such as multiple YouTube clips and even a CBS TV film clip showing both the take-offs and flight with the aft stairs deployed. Yes, this occurred after the hijacking, in the main, but it is also supported by comments from Captain Everett Johnson of World Airways.

Plus, the capacities of the 727 were identified by Boeing as a selling point to the military, which we now know from company brochures that were shown to the public at the 2013 COOPER exhibit. Add it all together and it is reasonable to assume that Himmelsbach was accurate on this one point.

At the risk of being snarky, have you guys read my book? This material is spelled out in detail. Yeesch.

Bruce I think you fail to see the point -

The issue is not you or Himmelsbach ... or your book.

The issue is DB Cooper.

[Shutter]

By the way Georger, do you realize when ever I have to write the name George, I end up writing Georger! I did that at work the other day...

Thanks 

[Bruce A. Smith]

did the chute really have an X on it? it was missed by a well known skydiver

This is a critical issue. Consider: how did Lynn Emerich miss an "X" stitched on his chute, then how did the WSP trooper fail to question it? Then, how come George Harrison didn't raise eyebrows at the NWO freight desk when the X-Chute arrived, nor anyone else handling the chute on the way to the tarmac and Flight 305. Even, Al Lee approved of it, too!

It's hard to imagine that all of these folks gave the bum chute a pass, especially when the general thinking was that the extra chutes were destined for Tina or some other crew member. What? NWO had NO Concern for its liability in giving a bad chute to the skyjacker, who could then turn around and use it to kill a crew member on the day before Thanksgiving? Donald Nyrop was really gonna take a chance on those optics? I don't think so.

Plus, we have no pix of the X-Chute. No corroboration of its X-ness.

So, the "X-Chute" is suspect. So is the speculation that Cooper used it - again, no corroboration.

So, using the X-ness of this front chute to help build a case that Cooper was a dummy, or died because the chute was a dud, is hard to accept in my view.

It is more plausible, to me, that the X-ness story developed as the Cooper profile shifted to the notion that DB Cooper was just smart enough to get himself killed, ala Earl Cossey and the Grand Flip-Flop, ie: DBC was a pro skydiver to he-was-an-idiot-who-cratered.

To chase this angle down means finding all the documents, and determining when the X-Chute story first appeared in the Official Norjak Narrative.

Perhaps the guys at the Smithsonian, along with us super-snoopers, will find that info eventually. After all, I've got my FOIA into James Comey, so it shouldn't be too long before I get my hands on the stuff. (smile).

Further, something that should not be discounted is that most of the Special Forces guys that I've talked to are convinced that Cooper was one of them.

Also, the initial position of the FBI was that Cooper was a smart, savvy hijacker. The Dumb Shit profile came later, and the political pressures to develop that perspective can not be overlooked.

[Shutter]

Good response, but I did point out that Lynn could of been in a rush while grabbing the chute, and I'm not sure if anyone outside of the skydiving community would know what the X meant.

I asked a while back if Lynn could be contacted. this information would be nice to have.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression, but I believe you have. my personal opinion is that I don't think he was a special ops of sort. that doesn't mean he wasn't. I lay out possible clues that contradict being special forces. it's up to you to follow, or believe those idea's just as it's up to me to believe in yours. conflicts will occur, but hopefully, they can be resolved, or we just disagree on certain points.

finding things out like contacting Lynn can be a positive approach in finding out what happened...

[Shutter]

the mistake was found the next day.

In the same sense, the files show them identifying one chute down to markings on the container (COSS, Johnson) and not saying anything about a red X on another...

[Robert99]

did the chute really have an X on it? it was missed by a well known skydiver

This is a critical issue. Consider: how did Lynn Emerich miss an "X" stitched on his chute, then how did the WSP trooper fail to question it? Then, how come George Harrison didn't raise eyebrows at the NWO freight desk when the X-Chute arrived, nor anyone else handling the chute on the way to the tarmac and Flight 305. Even, Al Lee approved of it, too!

It's hard to imagine that all of these folks gave the bum chute a pass, especially when the general thinking was that the extra chutes were destined for Tina or some other crew member. What? NWO had NO Concern for its liability in giving a bad chute to the skyjacker, who could then turn around and use it to kill a crew member on the day before Thanksgiving? Donald Nyrop was really gonna take a chance on those optics? I don't think so.

Plus, we have no pix of the X-Chute. No corroboration of its X-ness.

So, the "X-Chute" is suspect. So is the speculation that Cooper used it - again, no corroboration.

So, using the X-ness of this front chute to help build a case that Cooper was a dummy, or died because the chute was a dud, is hard to accept in my view.

It is more plausible, to me, that the X-ness story developed as the Cooper profile shifted to the notion that DB Cooper was just smart enough to get himself killed, ala Earl Cossey and the Grand Flip-Flop, ie: DBC was a pro skydiver to he-was-an-idiot-who-cratered.

To chase this angle down means finding all the documents, and determining when the X-Chute story first appeared in the Official Norjak Narrative.

Perhaps the guys at the Smithsonian, along with us super-snoopers, will find that info eventually. After all, I've got my FOIA into James Comey, so it shouldn't be too long before I get my hands on the stuff.

Further, something that should not be overlooked, or discounted, is that most of the Special Forces guys that I've talked to are convinced that Cooper was one of them.

Also, the initial position of the FBI was that Cooper was a smart, savvy hijacker. The Dumb Shit profile came later, and the political pressures to develop that perspective can not be overlooked.

Bruce, I am again amazed at how you can make a federal case out of an "X" being on the container of a reserve chute.  I doubt very much that the "X" was stitched (sewn) on the container.  Instead, it was probably simply made by an ink marker pen.

If the "X" didn't mean anything to Lynn Emerick, then it probably didn't mean anything except to the person who put it on the pack.  There is no reason whatsoever why the WSP trooper, NWA personnel, George Harrison, Al Lee, or anyone else should know what the "X" meant or have a legal liability with respect to it.

Also, for your information, don't hold your breath waiting for any meaningful Cooper information from the FBI, James Comey, or the FAA either.

Earlier, you asked Georger if he had read your book.  It is obvious that you haven't been following the posts on the above subjects yourself.

[Shutter]

I was under the impression that the X was a marking known by skydivers as a dummy chute, or something to that affect? they did take time to identify other containers that had writing with a magic marker on it?

[MeyerLouie]

Good response, but I did point out that Lynn could of been in a rush while grabbing the chute, and I'm not sure if anyone outside of the skydiving community would know what the X meant.

I asked a while back if Lynn could be contacted. this information would be nice to have.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression, but I believe you have. my personal opinion is that I don't think he was a special ops of sort. that doesn't mean he wasn't. I lay out possible clues that contradict being special forces. it's up to you to follow, or believe those idea's just as it's up to me to believe in yours. conflicts will occur, but hopefully, they can be resolved, or we just disagree on certain points.

finding things out like contacting Lynn can be a positive approach in finding out what happened...

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Virtually every key aspect of this case has been questioned -- no one really knows when Cooper actually jumped, Tina sat next to the guy for hours and she can't give us any more than she has -- one who supposedly was trained to be a skilled observer, the actual flight path can't even be determined, the parachutes -- who owned them, the X chute, the Amboy chute,  the FBI and all their screw ups and stone-walling -- like the so called lost cigarette butts....... the list goes on and on.  It's so frustrating -- it's difficult to know where to even start when so much of the case has been compromised.  Now, we can't even get a Thanksgiving party at Ariel without jumping through some very formidable hoops.  It's like the JonBenet case -- key people dropped the ball at the worst possible time, evidence was compromised, evidence was lost, and more lies and cover up ensued to save their asses.
 
Maybe that's why I prefer to work with the tangible.  I like the field work, I like going to the actual places in Cooper Country.  There's no denying or debating that.  It is what it is, no more, no less.  Finding more evidence is going to take a miracle.  It's what we need, but with all that's gone on (as described above), it's going to take an act of God.  Finding any of the money was a total miracle, a shot in the dark, a needle in 10 haystacks -- it happened once, it can, hopefully, happen again.  It's what we desperately need.  Everything else, as we have all experienced, is mere speculation and mental masturbation -- er, uh -- machination.

Meyer

[georger]

did the chute really have an X on it? it was missed by a well known skydiver

This is a critical issue. Consider: how did Lynn Emerich miss an "X" stitched on his chute, then how did the WSP trooper fail to question it? Then, how come George Harrison didn't raise eyebrows at the NWO freight desk when the X-Chute arrived, nor anyone else handling the chute on the way to the tarmac and Flight 305. Even, Al Lee approved of it, too!

It's hard to imagine that all of these folks gave the bum chute a pass, especially when the general thinking was that the extra chutes were destined for Tina or some other crew member. What? NWO had NO Concern for its liability in giving a bad chute to the skyjacker, who could then turn around and use it to kill a crew member on the day before Thanksgiving? Donald Nyrop was really gonna take a chance on those optics? I don't think so.

Plus, we have no pix of the X-Chute. No corroboration of its X-ness.

So, the "X-Chute" is suspect. So is the speculation that Cooper used it - again, no corroboration.

So, using the X-ness of this front chute to help build a case that Cooper was a dummy, or died because the chute was a dud, is hard to accept in my view.

It is more plausible, to me, that the X-ness story developed as the Cooper profile shifted to the notion that DB Cooper was just smart enough to get himself killed, ala Earl Cossey and the Grand Flip-Flop, ie: DBC was a pro skydiver to he-was-an-idiot-who-cratered.

To chase this angle down means finding all the documents, and determining when the X-Chute story first appeared in the Official Norjak Narrative.

Perhaps the guys at the Smithsonian, along with us super-snoopers, will find that info eventually. After all, I've got my FOIA into James Comey, so it shouldn't be too long before I get my hands on the stuff. (smile).

Further, something that should not be discounted is that most of the Special Forces guys that I've talked to are convinced that Cooper was one of them.

Also, the initial position of the FBI was that Cooper was a smart, savvy hijacker. The Dumb Shit profile came later, and the political pressures to develop that perspective can not be overlooked.

The problem may be you and not them!  Bad boys always see 'bad thing and conspiracies'.

[Shutter]

This is a critical issue. Consider: how did Lynn Emerich miss an "X" stitched on his chute, then how did the WSP trooper fail to question it? Then, how come George Harrison didn't raise eyebrows at the NWO freight desk when the X-Chute arrived, nor anyone else handling the chute on the way to the tarmac and Flight 305. Even, Al Lee approved of it, too!

only plausible if they are skydivers, or how would they know. they missed the D rings too? how many seen the chutes? they speak of the transporting, but did they all see them, and what exactly would they be looking for, two fronts, and two backs?

I'll admit I have questions about the X, and how it got on the plane, but I'm not thinking of conspiracies. the real question would be why they had a dummy chute mixed in with functioning chutes. I would hate to have a box of ammo with blanks, and real bullets mixed in? that would suck in a fox hole being fired on 

Now, we can't even get a Thanksgiving party at Ariel without jumping through some very formidable hoops.

This will no longer been an issue for anyone except one person. 

[MeyerLouie]

This is a critical issue. Consider: how did Lynn Emerich miss an "X" stitched on his chute, then how did the WSP trooper fail to question it? Then, how come George Harrison didn't raise eyebrows at the NWO freight desk when the X-Chute arrived, nor anyone else handling the chute on the way to the tarmac and Flight 305. Even, Al Lee approved of it, too!

only plausible if they are skydivers, or how would they know. they missed the D rings too? how many seen the chutes? they speak of the transporting, but did they all see them, and what exactly would they be looking for, two fronts, and two backs?

I'll admit I have questions about the X, and how it got on the plane, but I'm not thinking of conspiracies. the real question would be why they had a dummy chute mixed in with functioning chutes. I would hate to have a box of ammo with blanks, and real bullets mixed in? that would suck in a fox hole being fired on 

Now, we can't even get a Thanksgiving party at Ariel without jumping through some very formidable hoops.

This will no longer been an issue for anyone except one person. 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shutter, PM me on this one, if you would.  Meyer

[Bruce A. Smith]

The problem may be you and not them!  Bad boys always see 'bad thing and conspiracies'.

Yes, I could be blind as a bat as to what is going on in Norjak. By the same token, it could be you Georger, that is blinded to the truth of Norjak by your devotion to the Sacred Altar of Federal Investigation, brought about by familial and professional ties, and strengthened by a deep desire to cherish the cops and those they protect.

For those of us who live, um, closer to the gritty curbs and sewers on the street, we see a different picture. In addition, we know that sometimes the Emperor is not wearing any clothes no matter how loudly his tailor dost proclaim to the contrary.

[sailshaw]

Shutter  You say:  "If Cooper was so dead set sure of the stairs, why did he back down? he was in charge, no?"

I say:  "He backed down from the Pilot's fixed mind set just as it did not make any difference to have the stairs down on take-off. DB was not a pilot but knew from his information at Boeing that the company had demonstrated take-off, flight, and landing with the stairs deployed. So, DB knew this information but the 727 pilot did not. It was not worth an argument as it did not matter really to DB's plan"
How much longer will DB live before he lives out his life and then will we be told the real story? I think his book will tell the rest of the story and only get published upon his death.
Bob Sailshaw
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