You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Prospector:

How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?

I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.

Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.

What say you?

To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.

Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove. 

With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft.  We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk).  We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape).  So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew.  By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971. 

Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight.  This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs.  Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.

I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.

Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight.  This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs.  Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.

Agree - that classifies him.

If he served in WWII or was part of the Mil-Industry he very likely had to submit to tests, finger prints, etc. Where are his prints and files?  Maybe on some microfilm or fiche somewhere if they still existed in 1971 which isn't that long after the war .. everyone was tested (even test animals!)  I knew and worked with the people who developed those test batteries so this is not conjecture on my part - -

G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"

This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.

If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.

377

Crew debriefing notes can be found on our website.....

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I don't think Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was nothing but minimal. he didn't know how to operate the stairs. it appears he didn't know they worked from gravity. he gave in, and allowed the plane to takeoff with them up.

McCoy was a pilot, and a skydiver. he was basically the co-pilot during the hijacking. his timing was accurate, and got him where he needed to go. constant updates from the pilot on weather, altitude, and timed the jump. Cooper said "fly to mexico" flaps at 15, and under 10,000. this is not top secrete information.

He could of gained the information needed through many different avenue's. why does he have to be some special ops? kind of reminds me of the grandparents talking stories about there grand kids, beefing it up.....

Quote

Shutter, you've got a lot of 727 sim time. look at the SAT 727 jumps that are on YouTube. Can you see or estimate the flap angle?

I'll take a look. I never thought to look at the flaps....

I think so. Ive always said his real expertise was in "psychology"! 

G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"

This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.

If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.

377

Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. 

That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.

Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ?  No.  It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that!

Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.       

Nuff said about that non-issue.

I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.




 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"

This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.

If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.

377

Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. 

That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.

Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ?  No.  It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that!

Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.       

Nuff said about that non-issue.

I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.

I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner.  Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down.  Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.

It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done.  But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source.  So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know.  And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Now, from the correct angle I'm not sure if it's 15 degree flaps...Robert99?

That looks like it is about 15 degrees and it also looks like the moveable slotted leading edge devices on the tips of the wing are also deployed.  Do you know the exact flap position that has to be selected before those slotted LEDs start moving?

They start coming out as soon as I deploy the flaps...2, 5, 15 etc. they come out with each flap setting...

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"

This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.

If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.

377

Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. 

That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.

Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ?  No.  It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that!

Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.       

Nuff said about that non-issue.

I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.

I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner.  Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down.  Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.

It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done.  But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source.  So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know.  And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.

Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K.  Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.