Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 302461 times)

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Thanked: 90 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3045 on: May 10, 2021, 02:24:52 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”

This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.

The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.

I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).

If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?

*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.

Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.

Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.

These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.

Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.
I have identified someone from this "missing missing" group who perfectly matches Cooper's description, is the right age, and disappeared at around the same time. There are other interesting pieces of evidence as well. I am waiting on some public records requests to process before I release anything.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2757
  • Thanked: 406 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3046 on: May 10, 2021, 05:40:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”

This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.

The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.

I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).

If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?

*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.

Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.

Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.

These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.

Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.

Was Latin in your archetype ? 
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Thanked: 90 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3047 on: May 10, 2021, 07:04:28 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”

This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.

The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.

I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).

If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?

*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.

Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.

Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.

These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.

Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.

Was Latin in your archetype ?
Yes. Half-Mexican, half-Italian.

Im not prepared to declare him a suspect. I still have some things to look into, but so far there’s nothing  to immediately dismiss them.

Unlike some folks, I’m not willing to twist things to make a suspect “fit”.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 07:08:01 PM by Chaucer »
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3048 on: May 17, 2021, 04:07:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
 
I respect your take and her rights.  But it would be nice if someone could ask her nicely to give it one more shot.  Try and reach out.  If the old boy is still alive, he might  answer her?  He sure as hell is not going to bite on anyone else’s line.  What could it hurt for her to just put out the question and say “I just want to know if you made it?  Just send me an answer and some form of proof like a $20 bill”.? To. Weed out the crazies that will respond.  Likely no real answer would come but its worth a shot.  Just like combing those woods again with a metal detector. 
So I hear there is lots of violence recently in Portland.  Be careful to all of f you that are going there

...I've always found you to be very  nice and personable....


Thank you. Maybe you can tell Tina for me...

So I take it Tina is not one to want to talk about this case that likely ruined parts of her life?  Its too bad because she holds the biggest key to this whole thing since the cigarette butts are poof.  So no DNA, the next best try is Tina.  She is the one that got to interact with him and she is the only one, well maybe Flo, that could possibly get a jolt of memory if she heard his voice or something?  Its a stretch but this entire goose chase is  a stretch.  Sure it could break open if someone came out of the woodwork with evidence.  I would not give up on Tina, no way.
She did a recent interview, the upshot being that she is now speaking a bit more, is being very circumspect about who she's talking with, and while she understands why people want to know and are frustrated by the unsolved mystery, they have to realize that the people who were there moved on with their lives and may not have the same priorities. She particularly mentions that about 90-95% of those approaching her are male and some in the past made her uncomfortable at her home/work, one even telling her that as a Christian she should tell all she knew - which she feels she has. Some have accused her of being traumatized/irrational or insulted her age/memory/eyesight if she said a particular suspect's photo did not match her memory of Cooper. She has devoted her life to helping others in various ways and seems a calm, rational, quiet, kind, intelligent woman who simply doesn't want, in her 70's, to be harassed over an incident in her 20's. If she refuses an interview request, people must simply respect that. She has a right to her own life.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4118
  • Thanked: 340 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3049 on: May 17, 2021, 05:48:15 PM »
The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.

Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.

I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....

I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2757
  • Thanked: 406 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3050 on: May 17, 2021, 11:30:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.

Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.

I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....

I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?

So the takeaway is: this is a personal contest/feud between you and Tina Mucklow ... and the FBI.

So far as I can find, you were not a part of the original DB Cooper hijacking. You arent mentioned in the case by anyone. You have inserted yourself. Why should Tina Mucklow have to deal with any of that or you?   When and how did the DB Cooper hijacking become about Bruce Smith, and why? Aren't you extraneous to the whole matter?   ;)
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3051 on: May 28, 2021, 05:20:43 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.

Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.

I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....

I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
I totally get what Georger is saying in the post below this one where he says you are not part of the actual investigation. But you have spent much of your life on this. Tina does not care about that however. So you obviously cannot be the one to try and approach her.   It would be like sending Hoover after Dillinger.  I a knee jerk analogy.  It HAS TO BE A WOMAN.   She is going to respond to a woman in a manner where she is not ready to slam the door.  But the woman will have to be clever and assure her she will not betray her confidences. I would recruit a woman with very high knowledge of the case to approach her. She is going to be suspicious of course of anyone that she does not know.  Too bad one of those sisters from the convent she joined was not up to speed on this?  You guys know the players better than I .  You need a woman to approach her.   Have her ask "would you not at least be interested if  he survived the jump that night and if he were still alive?  After all, he was very nice to you, and I doubt he ever was going to kill you or your co workers. "   Now we know Flo Schaffner wants no part of this, and she may be tougher to crack than Mucklow, but she is not as valuable as Tina.  Not sure about the other one. But I doubt DB cares much about her. Tick Tock.  The clock is near midnight Bruce
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4118
  • Thanked: 340 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3052 on: May 28, 2021, 05:31:11 AM »
I am the eternal optimist.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Thanked: 90 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3053 on: June 01, 2021, 11:27:35 PM »
I have looked everywhere and I have only found fakes and reproductions.

Does anyone know where I could buy an authentic DB Cooper wanted poster from 1971/72?
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4118
  • Thanked: 340 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3054 on: June 02, 2021, 04:25:08 AM »
Interesting pursuit, Chaucer.
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3055 on: June 13, 2021, 08:54:45 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.

Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.

I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....

I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?

Hey Bruce.  But you are very sure it can’t be McCoy right?