Author Topic: General Questions About The Case (Read 646690 times)

dice · « **Reply #1485 on:** January 13, 2018, 05:25:09 PM »

FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1486 on:** January 13, 2018, 06:27:29 PM »

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FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.

Yes, I thought that as well, however the bills aren't all uniform..

these look like termite damage..

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Shutter · « **Reply #1487 on:** January 13, 2018, 07:20:46 PM »

If the photo below was available 20 years ago I could easily say it shows obvious smoke damage, no?

georger · « **Reply #1488 on:** January 13, 2018, 11:51:44 PM »

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FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.

Yes, I thought that as well, however the bills aren't all uniform..

these look like termite damage..

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To my knowledge nobody has ever mentioned termites before, with respect to the Cooper bills at Tena Bar. Termites are not mentioned in the Palmer report. In fact when asked 'what accounts for the surprisingly good condition of the money' Palmer replied: 'The upper layer(s) of beach sand are sterile.' When pressed about how long the money had been at T_Bar Palmer said, ' at least a year, perhaps longer', and when pressed further he finally said, 'Maybe a long time'. No FBI report I know of mentions termites - the Ingrams didnt mention termites - and agents who pefformed the excavation didnt mention termites but I will make a few calls tomorrow about that.

You might want to read this website about termite populations in Clark County, and Portland vs Vancouver. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Termites are voracious feeders, especially of paper. Whatever length of time the money was at Tina Bar how long would it take termites to consume the Ingram bundles, and reduce it to sawdust. I suspect it wouldnt take long. Weeks? Days? And yet the mid portions of these bills survived. Termites can destroy a library shelf of books in a matter of days/weeks. Why would any of these thin bundles be left once termites started feeding on them?

So one question to Fkyjack is: Termites ate the bills where? At Tina Bar or someplace else, and then the money was transported from some termite site to Tina Bar .... as part of some plant theory ?

Here are a couple of photos to try and put this in some perspective.

ps: Methane. Methane is a digestive byproduct of termites. Methane detectors are used in my rural State to find termites at buildings. There is no FBI Lab report that I know of that reports methane in the money. Tom also did an elemental survey of his bills. Im not sure if he tested for methane or not but methane is not in his elemental report - but Im not sure it would still be detectable all these years later? I want to talk to several guys tomorrow who were at the excavation and see if they can shed any light on this ...

Shutter · « **Reply #1489 on:** January 14, 2018, 08:37:34 AM »

I brought up termites years ago on the DZ..one thing I noticed with termites is how they attack..we have them down here. pesky little bastards with no remorse. they tend to bore tunnels, and leave large voids like you see in the photo's above. I don't think it would take long at all to destroy the money completely as Georger mentioned.

what are the odds of getting termites in that area, are they high. does Washington have a termite swarming season like Florida?

.

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1490 on:** January 14, 2018, 09:55:55 AM »

I was just throwing out the termite theory for discussion...

Kaye analyzed the holes to determine if the edges were sharp from insects or frayed from bacteria. He found they were frayed and discounted insects. This is correct for recent insect activity but does not account for old insect activity. Old insect damage would enable bacteria to fray the edges...

The problem with TBAR money is: the rubber bands were intact (brittle) around the packages and the money degraded but together in order. One theory often thrown around is that the money was deposited later but was in an environment that somehow protected the rubber bands. Some bills appear consistent with termite damage while others appear consistent with abrasion and bacteria..

Termite theory fits the rubber band dilemma.

Hypothetical: the hijacker or accomplice hides the money in a house/garage/shed, a structure that they have control of. Some of the money in a bundle (or bundles) is partially degraded by termites. Portland area has 3 species and apparently they love the taste of paper currency. The rubber bands would have remained intact. The now damaged bundle(s) would have become useless and a liability, so discarded a few years before discovery on TBAR. In those years abrasion/water action and bacteria further degraded the bundle dispersing the chards and fraying the edges.

(TERMITES DO NOT LIKE SAND)

termite damage

dice · « **Reply #1491 on:** January 14, 2018, 11:34:54 AM »

Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1492 on:** January 14, 2018, 11:55:47 AM »

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Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT

look at these Cooper bills... irregular patterns.. not termite vs anaerobic/abrasion/water.. but possibly "both"

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Re suspect: There is a clue in the Seattle "Dan Cooper" comic...

georger · « **Reply #1493 on:** January 14, 2018, 02:58:34 PM »

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Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT

look at these Cooper bills... irregular patterns.. not termite vs anaerobic/abrasion/water.. but possibly "both"

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Re suspect: There is a clue in the Seattle "Dan Cooper" comic...

Several things: I have no feelings about termites, one way or the other. It matters if its one vs a whole colony of termites. A single termite 'boroughs'. Eats a hole and heads forward eating as it goes leaving wood/paper untouched along the sides. A whole colony eats the whole thing belching methane along the way - thank you Mam, whats for desert! In cold weather their feeding slows and they tend semi-hibernate. In warm weather its full steam ahead - those bundles would hardly last a week. Farmers fear termites in this State. They can reduce the support structure of a valuable wood barn to pulp in several seasons. Thats why the old timers built their large barns of the best hardwoods they could find - walnut, oak, etc. We spend millions on termite mitigation each year! They enter from the ground and they usually travel in colonies like ants, they build nests like ants!

They eat in 3 dimensions. They tunnel as they eat. Look at those book damage photos. Termites are large insects infinitely larger than bacteria. Plus there is normal atomic fracturing of that money - lots of pieces broken along atomic lines from the main bodies of bills. The money was breaking down atomically - that takes time and is temperature dependent. Freeze and thaw cycles. Seasons. Years?

If termites, there would 100% be genetic evidence of termites in the money. The evidence might still be on the untreated bills today. Iowa State Extension might do testing for free!

Let me try and get a few guys that were at the excavation and see what they say ..

georger · « **Reply #1494 on:** January 14, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »

Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1495 on:** January 14, 2018, 04:33:08 PM »

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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.

Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).

video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor

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The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..

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Willamette valley..

georger · « **Reply #1496 on:** January 14, 2018, 06:01:20 PM »

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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.

Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).

video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Willamette valley..

I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.

This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.

So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home?

I mean if termites are involved then what species, and location(s) of that species. The same for any other 'bug' (or pollen or diatoms etc) associated with the bills. Tom was mindful of this.

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1497 on:** January 14, 2018, 06:28:20 PM »

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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.

Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).

video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Willamette valley..

I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.

This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.

So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home?

Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..

The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.

IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...

Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage

Robert99 · « **Reply #1498 on:** January 14, 2018, 06:50:51 PM »

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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.

Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).

video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Willamette valley..

I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.

This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.

So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home?

Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..

The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.

IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...

Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage

Flyjack,

There is no indication that a "residence" was ever 50 yards upstream (that's 150 feet to the south) of the Tina Bar gate. That would not even be all the way to the Fazio sand operation.

FLYJACK · « **Reply #1499 on:** January 14, 2018, 07:13:16 PM »

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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).

One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.

more later ... ?

Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.

Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).

video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Willamette valley..

I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.

This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.

So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home?

Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..

The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.

IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...

Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage

Flyjack,

There is no indication that a "residence" was ever 50 yards upstream (that's 150 feet to the south) of the Tina Bar gate. That would not even be all the way to the Fazio sand operation.

Robert99,

Sorry for the confusion, I meant a residence 50 yards from the river (miles) upstream of TBAR (Willamette area), not a residence 50 yards from TBAR.

Author Topic: General Questions About The Case (Read 646690 times)

dice

Re: General Questions About The Case

FLYJACK

Re: General Questions About The Case

Shutter

Re: General Questions About The Case

georger

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Shutter

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FLYJACK

Re: General Questions About The Case

dice

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FLYJACK

Re: General Questions About The Case

georger

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georger

Re: General Questions About The Case

FLYJACK

Re: General Questions About The Case

georger

Re: General Questions About The Case

FLYJACK

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Robert99

Re: General Questions About The Case

FLYJACK

Re: General Questions About The Case