Good afternoon everyone! Got a few questions and maybe a thought or two.

1. Anyone know if the NTSB did an investigation into the incident? If they did; I am wondering if there are any discrepancies with the FBI report. Also if they did...how in the hell do we get a copy of that?!

2. Does anyone have 1970's aerial photos of PDX?

3. Speaking of PDX; what in the heck is up with the carpets there? Apparently you can buy clothes and ties of it.

4. Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up? Id be willing to bet that he did quite a few. I am thinking he was quite calculated and methodical. I wonder if this avenue was ever investigated?

5. I know everyone says he jumped out blindly and could not know the area but I kind of disagree with that. I feel that the an added bonus of slowing the aircraft down was to compare it to a "practice run." For an example; DBC was able to fly a Piper aircraft on roughly the same route with a wide open throttle. This would be a similar speed to the NWO aircraft with DBC's requested specific. With this; he could "guesstimate" where he would be at; at any given time. I just feel that he was too prepared and planned to leave that to luck.

4 & 5:

I've never seen any official document which even speculated about these questions - much less provided any real evidence in these directions. The closest thing is the R2 report that someone was dropping flares from a small airplane near Eugene the weekend before the skyjacking at Portland. Himmelsbach thought Cooper's bomb was composed of road flares. Mitchel was shown a large number of photos of suspects from the Eugene area.

If Cooper was in training at Moses Lake, he wouldn't need much training. All he would have to do is keep track of flights, planes, and airline schedules. He told Tina her plane was simply the 'right plane at the right place at the right time', and nothing more - so apparently he had been waiting/watching for the right opportunity in his plan.

 

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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?

Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only.  They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...

Since the above is apparently addressed to me, let me reply at some length.  What purpose would a dry run serve?

Cooper knew from the outset that he would be making a night jump and he knew that the weather was bad when he bought the ticket in Portland.  He knew that it was raining in Portland since he was wearing a rain coat and just looking up would have given him a realistic view of the clouds.

He could also see the clouds as the airliner climbed up through them on the way to Seattle, but he had actually hijacked the airliner before it even  got off the ground.

There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky.  So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.

Cooper can thank NWA personnel for saving his bacon up to the point where he jumped.  J. Edgar Hoover did not like to be shown up by some two-bit hijacker and probably would have told his agents in Seattle to storm the plane and kill the hijacker if NWA had not intervened.  Some members of this thread have had their closest relatives killed as "collateral damage" in shoot outs between FBI agents and would be aircraft hijackers.

The fact that Cooper did not specifically ask for sky-diver parachute rigs, with back and chest parachutes, indicates a lack of planning and/or knowledge.  He was aware of some of the performance data for the 727 and that indicates he had some training or experience with that specific aircraft. 

Cooper did know that the 727 aft stairs could be lowered in flight and that the 727 could take off with the stairs unlocked.  Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower those stairs himself.  This suggests to me that Cooper's 727 experience was on the modified 727s that Boeing prepared for Southeast Asia operations.  And I have stated several times over the years, Cooper was probably a former military or CIA type who had worked either directly for the USA Government or one of its contractors.

But again, I see nothing that would require a dry run.

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Shutter, is there any possibility that Tom Colbert and Mark Zaid could do some bitching to the FBI and FAA about the redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts?  Even with two interventions by my Congressman (actually Congressperson at this time), the FBI and FAA gave me the royal run around.

Tom was reading the forum. when I woke up this morning I received an email from Tom stating the following..

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Thanks...just saw the post about getting us to help on Robert99, and the Seattle ATC transcripts...we haven't had ONE redaction lifted in the hundreds of pages so far, the Feds are stubborn. Sorry...night...TJC

TJC, Thanks for the reply.

Robert99

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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?

Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only.  They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...

Since the above is apparently addressed to me, let me reply at some length.  What purpose would a dry run serve?

Cooper knew from the outset that he would be making a night jump and he knew that the weather was bad when he bought the ticket in Portland.  He knew that it was raining in Portland since he was wearing a rain coat and just looking up would have given him a realistic view of the clouds.

He could also see the clouds as the airliner climbed up through them on the way to Seattle, but he had actually hijacked the airliner before it even  got off the ground.

There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky.  So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.

Cooper can thank NWA personnel for saving his bacon up to the point where he jumped.  J. Edgar Hoover did not like to be shown up by some two-bit hijacker and probably would have told his agents in Seattle to storm the plane and kill the hijacker if NWA had not intervened.  Some members of this thread have had their closest relatives killed as "collateral damage" in shoot outs between FBI agents and would be aircraft hijackers.

The fact that Cooper did not specifically ask for sky-diver parachute rigs, with back and chest parachutes, indicates a lack of planning and/or knowledge.  He was aware of some of the performance data for the 727 and that indicates he had some training or experience with that specific aircraft. 

Cooper did know that the 727 aft stairs could be lowered in flight and that the 727 could take off with the stairs unlocked.  Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower those stairs himself.  This suggests to me that Cooper's 727 experience was on the modified 727s that Boeing prepared for Southeast Asia operations.  And I have stated several times over the years, Cooper was probably a former military or CIA type who had worked either directly for the USA Government or one of its contractors.

But again, I see nothing that would require a dry run.

... all of which makes the Moses Lake Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller group more interesting.

Carr obviously came to the same conclusion - he just didn't say much about it when he was with us. I find that interesting. Carr knew (thought?) more than he was saying ?

 

How come Cooper didn't seem all that concerned about when to jump?  I think he might have wanted to jump early, like right out of Sea-Tac -- around JBLM or Olympia, but it didn't happen.  Nonetheless, he didn't seem to get all that worried, stressed, or overly concerned that the jump got delayed.  He didn't seem rushed about getting the aft stairs to deploy, and he didn't seem to be rushed about cutting cordage and getting packed and strapped for the jump.  How come?  One would think he would have a target area in mind, that he might feel rushed, maybe even panicked, so as to hit his "mark" in order to increase his chances for a successful escape once he was on the ground.  I have yet to hear a  plausible, reasonable, logical explanation.  Leave pet theories, big egos, and outlandish conjectures at the door.  What about this?
 
Meyer

I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.

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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.

The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971.  The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system.  They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.

Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker.  But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.

Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line.  So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer. 

Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather.

The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno.  Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.

A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.

If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking.  They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots.

If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking.  They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots.

Or, they were just trying to consider any and all hypotheticals ... in and already difficult case where dots weren't connecting quickly ?

Most agents try to take things in stride as they happen. It's called the Fed Bur. of ... Investigation. The Cooper case opened Pandora's Box to speculation. Then money turns up at Tina Bar of all places! It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma...

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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.

The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971.  The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system.  They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.

Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker.  But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.

Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line.  So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer. 

Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather.

The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno.  Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.

A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.

If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking.  They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots.

If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking.  They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots.

Or, they were just trying to consider any and all hypotheticals ... in and already difficult case where dots weren't connecting quickly ?

I don't know what dots they were trying to connect, but this hijacking is just simply NOT that complicated.  Thousands of aeronautical engineers and pilots were working on more complicated problems ever day in 1971.  My original estimate was that Cooper would be in jail by the end of the week (about three days after the hijacking).

Some people thought (hoped) that, others weren't so sure including the people searching near Woodland the first two days. Cooper was already a step or two ahead. The money at Tina Bar may indicate he hit a wall ... especially if the money came up with the dredging in '74?