Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 648071 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1215 on: June 04, 2017, 07:42:41 PM »
Not that I'm aware of, Dukie. But I get most of my info on these kinds of subjects from GG, here, the DZ, and odd conversations with principals. The message I get is that Portland was the object of most scrutiny.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 07:43:27 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1216 on: June 04, 2017, 08:46:58 PM »
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Does anyone know how many flights from Seattle to Portland were made that day in the hours prior to the hijacking? I'm sure that information is out there (possibly even posted/discussed here previously?

Cooper's response was "it was at the right place and time"
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1217 on: June 04, 2017, 09:04:44 PM »
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Not that I'm aware of, Dukie. But I get most of my info on these kinds of subjects from GG, here, the DZ, and odd conversations with principals. The message I get is that Portland was the object of most scrutiny.

Dukie?
 

Offline Mack

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1218 on: June 21, 2017, 08:37:47 PM »
What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1219 on: June 21, 2017, 09:38:29 PM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer 
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1220 on: June 22, 2017, 01:20:25 AM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

The NWA 727 flight between Portland and Seattle that was hijacked had only been started about three months earlier (August I believe) and information on that flight, including the fact that it was a 727, was widely distributed in 1971.  Further, Cooper specifically double checked with the ticket agent that it was a 727 that was inbound.  This means that the hijacking, as actually done, was planned within the August to November time frame.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1221 on: June 22, 2017, 07:24:24 AM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

727's were all over the place in 1971..Cooper stated it was at the right place and time. where he came from is the question...
 

Offline Mack

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1222 on: June 22, 2017, 09:43:55 AM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case.  Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see.  Think about the next step and implications to his plan.  Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 09:48:44 AM by Mack »
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1223 on: June 22, 2017, 11:27:36 AM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case.  Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see.  Think about the next step and implications to his plan.  Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.

Mack,

The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight.  That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent. 
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1224 on: June 22, 2017, 02:09:28 PM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case.  Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see.  Think about the next step and implications to his plan.  Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.

Mack,

The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight.  That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent.

and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!

Hello! Hello! Earth to Cooperland! Is anybody out there listening?    :rofl:
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 03:07:09 PM by georger »
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1225 on: June 22, 2017, 07:24:45 PM »
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.

Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared?  He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack?  Try another day?  Really -- after what we know about him? 
Meyer

My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case.  Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see.  Think about the next step and implications to his plan.  Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.

Mack,

The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight.  That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent.

and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!

Hello! Hello! Earth to Cooperland! Is anybody out there listening?    :rofl:

That's right, there is rhyme to the reason, the 727 was chosen for a reason -- 727s are also known for their buoyancy.  Meyer
 

Offline dice

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1226 on: June 22, 2017, 09:21:32 PM »
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and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!

This is the first time I am hearing this. And I recall reading something about McCoy doing specific training...this is significant..and was McCoy training there?
The other night I watched the film All the President's Men, regarding Watergate and the period around the hijacking. What really drew my interest is when the character Deep Throat played by Hal Holbrook explained to Woodward (Robert Redford) the profoundness of the blowback that was coming from everywhere.  He explained it wasn't just about Watergate, but all the other illegal stuff going on with FBI CIA etc.  Made me think of this caper.  Lots of factions at the time doing cover illegal shit and this could have very well been one of them.
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1227 on: June 22, 2017, 09:52:29 PM »
If you are implying a "false flag", I doubt they would leave so much mystery. it would of been simple to use someone they could easily catch to complete the mission. then you have so many copycats following this that would make the mission a failure...Bob Knoss used this theory often...
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1228 on: June 23, 2017, 12:24:19 AM »
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and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!

This is the first time I am hearing this. And I recall reading something about McCoy doing specific training...this is significant..and was McCoy training there?

The other night I watched the film All the President's Men, regarding Watergate and the period around the hijacking. What really drew my interest is when the character Deep Throat played by Hal Holbrook explained to Woodward (Robert Redford) the profoundness of the blowback that was coming from everywhere.  He explained it wasn't just about Watergate, but all the other illegal stuff going on with FBI CIA etc.  Made me think of this caper.  Lots of factions at the time doing cover illegal shit and this could have very well been one of them.

Here is my original post - its in the Suspects Thread. June 03, 2017, 03:49:55 PM - You can read people's replies there. I dont believe McCoy was part of that training group or ever trained there. 

Possible NEW suspect pool?

Quotes:  "There was a static drop training range near George, WA (near Moses Lake) in 1971, used by a small group of USAF Special Forces "combat controllers” and by the Army for Loadmaster training. They shared a building at McChord and often trained together at Moses Lake. The program ‘presumably’ included drops from the back of the 727 at Moses Lake. I don’t know if this program ever came under focus when they were looking for DB Cooper, but I did hear that at one time the FBI was looking at the possibility that Cooper had Loadmaster connections. Carr brought that up perhaps because he found it mentioned in a few files. But, here is the rest of the story.

Although the group was small, these were fairly high level trainees and the program at McChord was important.

The USAF Special Forces "combat controllers" did precision freefall drops under various conditions and at night at Moses Lake.  They would also drop in and observe or participate in the Loadmaster training sessions being conducted and help provide wind data to the drop aircraft, and guide the air drop in by radio.  Their officer in charge was Capt. Wilson."

" M/Sgt R.D. (Wally) had the crew of load masters.  They had an "aerial delivery" shop in a corner of a warehouse sort of building at McChord, where they prepared stuff to go out and repacked their cargo chutes after each mission. Their work was important for training Loadmasters going to Vietnam. The group of  “USAF Special Forces combat controllers" shared a corner of the same building and each group kept the other informed and did mission planning together. The Loadmaster program was important. Several Army paratroopers from Fort Bragg were always assigned to this unit for Loadmaster training and you had to have previous paratrooper training in order to be accepted into the program. A lot of these people in both programs were training for operations in Vietnam. "

"I know Wilson and Wally got involved during the hijacking case in ‘71.  He received the request for chutes and passed it down to Wally’s shop. But then he checked with his superiors and was told not to provide the chutes or participate because full clearance had not been received. The person on the phone hadn’t even identified himself! So we didn’t supply the chutes and they had to go to private sources for those. Then within a couple of days, the matter was cleared up and the Air Force did cooperate, and several groups were formed to cooperate with the FBI and NWA in the Cooper hijacking matter. The FBI and NWA were helpless without our help.

People wondered if the hijacker was one of the people associated with the Moses Lake training operations. That was a very unique group of people with the same skills the hijacker spoke of and demonstrated. I’m not sure how that was checked out."

*Note: Special thanks to a couple of people who helped with this. 

photo attached ...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 12:30:55 AM by georger »
 
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Offline JLa

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« Reply #1229 on: June 26, 2017, 02:35:33 PM »
Good afternoon everyone! Got a few questions and maybe a thought or two.

1. Anyone know if the NTSB did an investigation into the incident? If they did; I am wondering if there are any discrepancies with the FBI report. Also if they did...how in the hell do we get a copy of that?!

2. Does anyone have 1970's aerial photos of PDX?

3. Speaking of PDX; what in the heck is up with the carpets there? Apparently you can buy clothes and ties of it.

4. Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up? Id be willing to bet that he did quite a few. I am thinking he was quite calculated and methodical. I wonder if this avenue was ever investigated?

5. I know everyone says he jumped out blindly and could not know the area but I kind of disagree with that. I feel that the an added bonus of slowing the aircraft down was to compare it to a "practice run." For an example; DBC was able to fly a Piper aircraft on roughly the same route with a wide open throttle. This would be a similar speed to the NWO aircraft with DBC's requested specific. With this; he could "guesstimate" where he would be at; at any given time. I just feel that he was too prepared and planned to leave that to luck.