Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 283861 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4005 on: March 02, 2021, 04:46:52 PM »
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The FBI stated that they believed the placard was from 305

Believed is not confirmed...no, not all 727-100 aircraft had a separate control or emergency function. zero, were on the 200 series. this is what causes the problem.

1) the small panel on the wall has instructions on the front.
2) the larger placard could of been supplied to go above the panel giving further instructions.
3) the panel can not been seen in the stairwell. I know you use the poor quality to help support the possibility of it being obscured but I don't see it along with others.
4) a placard can be seen in the stairwell even with the poor quality photo. why didn't that one come off?

I  fully understand exactly where the placard goes. it's not relevant if it doesn't belong on 305. how it got on the ground and found would become the real mystery. I suggest calling Boeing back and asking specific questions about the placard and it's reason.

It does not appear that there is a two-hole emergency release panel on the 305 jet next to the main access door based upon the poor quality screenshot that I've seen. That said, I wouldn't bet my life on it because I do see a dark splotch or shadow where I would expect to see the two holes.

The thing to consider is that the Hicks' placard seems to reference a somewhat different version of the emergency release system. Therefore, do we really know what we're dealing with here? Could the panel have been located on the port side of the jet stairway as is the exterior emergency release door on 727s?

All I know is that it should take an FBI agent a grand total of 3 seconds to determine whether 305 had an emergency release panel with a red handle in it. If it didn't then the placard simply could not have come from 305. That said, the FBI didn't come to that conclusion. Why? Did it, perhaps, actually have and emergency release panel with a red handle even though it's not obvious to us?
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Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4006 on: March 02, 2021, 04:47:13 PM »
To be fair, I'm not completely sold it doesn't belong on 305. after seeing the video and the still it backs up things said in the past. I'm pretty sure it wasn't on 305. many have made similar claims, including myself about the condition of the placard. wind, movement have all be discussed. it is strange to believe it sat where it landed for almost 8 years without moving or being overgrown. it's very light, extremely light. Hicks claims it was in some brush.

Points are brought up about the placard. it's an interior placard. typically, they remain in the interior. I agree completely. I question how this could be anything but from a plane with the stairs down. it's really hard to disprove. perhaps our hunter punked us all. I don't think it would be hard for Hicks to find the flight path or the general area, even in 1978.

A certain amount of planes the same series or 100's had kits that could be purchased from Boeing and installed on them. they could be no different than the one's we see in the photo's over the years having this option. I don't know.

Northwest confirms the placard comes from the same type of plane but fail to confirm they had the system installed. it's very frustrating getting half the answers all the time. 
 

Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4007 on: March 02, 2021, 05:01:35 PM »
Nothing would be on the opposite side of the stairwell...everything appears to be installed in line possibly on a wire system linking together. it's all mechanical and hydraulics.

8 years later the FBI wouldn't take 3 seconds for anything. plus, another placard was being looked at during the same period. phone calls and fax machines were the communications used. we see things stretched out in the 302's doesn't mean they were 24/7 on that one subject. they investigated with a search, sent the placard to NWO and waited for a response from them and Boeing.

I can't see it in the video or the still shots. IMO it's not on that wall. you push the main lever to release. pull a red handle to release. it's two different controls.

Here is a super blowup. it's distorted but you can see a shadow below the main door and nothing beside the lower bottom right of the door. you see a gap in the trim but that's not it either.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4008 on: March 02, 2021, 05:05:02 PM »
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Nothing would be on the opposite side of the stairwell...everything appears to be installed in line possibly on a wire system linking together. it's all mechanical and hydraulics.

8 years later the FBI wouldn't take 3 seconds for anything. plus, another placard was being looked at during the same period. phone calls and fax machines were the communications used. we see things stretched out in the 302's doesn't mean they were 24/7 on that one subject. they investigated with a search, sent the placard to NWO and waited for a response from them and Boeing.

I can't see it in the video or the still shots. IMO it's not on that wall. you push the main lever to release. pull a red handle to release. it's two different controls.

Here is a super blowup. it's distorted but you can see a shadow below the main door and nothing beside the lower bottom right of the door. you see a gap in the trim but that's not it either.

This is not accurate pertaining to the exterior emergency release door and unit...it's on the port side, opposite the side of the normal exterior airstair release.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4009 on: March 02, 2021, 05:39:48 PM »
How were the placards mounted on the exterior of the 727's? Weren't they "glued" on? Or were they riveted?


 
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Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4010 on: March 02, 2021, 05:45:34 PM »
The access panel on the bottom of the fuselage is on the right side of the plane looking from the back...a placard on the opposite side tells you this..


..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 05:53:37 PM by Shutter »
 

Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4011 on: March 02, 2021, 05:50:00 PM »
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How were the placards mounted on the exterior of the 727's? Weren't they "glued" on? Or were they riveted?

None that I know of are riveted. I'm sure there is a difference in the adhesive used especially to the rear of the aircraft where fuel can get on them. typically, placards are placed when the plane is near completion..

Below is a pic of the port side side with a placard..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:16:06 PM by Shutter »
 

Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4012 on: March 02, 2021, 06:30:51 PM »
Here is the starboard side with the controls and placard...it appears they had a frame around them at one point..(placard)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:41:23 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4013 on: March 02, 2021, 06:42:48 PM »
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The access panel on the bottom of the fuselage is on the right side of the plane looking from the back...a placard on the opposite side tells you this..


..


Some jets don't have an emergency exterior release. Others do. It's on portside. See pic
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4014 on: March 02, 2021, 06:43:15 PM »
Just speculating from general aviation knowledge, but I would expect the interior and exterior emergency release handles to be on the same side of the airplane, because I would think that they would both access the same physical mechanics of releasing the door from the hydraulic system. The normal operational handles wouldn't necessarily have to be next to them or each other because they are basically switches to activate the hydraulics.
 
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Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4015 on: March 02, 2021, 06:55:35 PM »
It depends on what is considered emergency release. they are all called that. the reference appears to be about one plane vs a model. it states except no. 293...possibly?

They changed the emergency panel over time it appears. the safety cards show different handles that are pulled. the optional two hole system was not on all the planes. kits were sold..Hominid believes over time they did away completely with the system. it's another reason we don't see a lot of them or the placard.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 10:08:32 PM by Shutter »
 

Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4016 on: March 02, 2021, 10:31:45 PM »
Reading Flyjacks post fills in the gaps I was looking for. the 727-200 had the emergency system built into the normal stair functions. that's why it doesn't need or require as separate function. the  document states a T handle...I knew I got it from somewhere..

According to the document posted by Fly it shows the external controls also had an emergency system with the same function. that would put the placard on the exterior of the plane and not on the exterior of the plane via airstairs. I haven't seen this function on the exterior or the placard in place.  I would still like to verify the function but appears to resolve the problem..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 10:33:21 PM by Shutter »
 

Online Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4017 on: March 02, 2021, 10:57:57 PM »
What is interesting is they tell you to remove both covers to get to the red handle on the exterior operation and only state removing one cover on the interior. safety cards show two covers..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:48:52 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4018 on: March 03, 2021, 12:36:15 PM »
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Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?

Shutter, permit me to inject something here.  Nothing from an airliner that is doing at least 200+ MPH falls straight down.  Everything has an initial forward motion along the flight path, but the heavier objects will continue further along that path than the lighter objects which will slow down much faster.  Things such as the Cooper placard will slow down almost instantly.  But in short order, everything is moving vertically with respect to the air mass and subject to the winds aloft.

The heavier objects will be on the ground first and the lighter objects will take longer and thus will drift horizontally much further.  In sky diving, a no-pull skydiver falling head first from 10,000 feet will be on the ground in about 40 seconds.  If he is in a stable spread, it will take about 60 seconds.  If he is under canopy from 10,000 feet, the descent rate will be about 1200 feet per minute and he will be on the ground in about 8 minutes.
So I assume experiments have been done other than the one determining that the noise they heard was verified to be him leaping from the stairs?  So accounting for the wind speed and direction that night, (I do not know how accurate weather report on winds and such were in 1971?), and his weight and all, they should have done a simulation with both scenario's.   The chute deployed and the chute not.  But it seems pretty obvious that he did make it, deploy the chute, because if he had simply crashed to his demise, SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND.  How many are still alive that were in the cock pit?  I know the captain passed away a long time ago.  And I know Bruce said that one guy changes his story often?  They really must come up with an accurate course in the Victor 23 path.  I have heard the reports that they are unsure of the course taken?  Even with very high winds as they say there were that night, how far would something that heavy drift?

It would be good to try and do a simulation with weather conditions that were as similar as possible to that night.  I know that is not easy
There are many scenarios that would have DBC perish in the jump without any remains being found.

Also, despite a vocal minority disputing it, 305 flew down Victor 23.
The only scenario I can imagine him not surviving the jump, and not finding things would be a water landing. If he were to perish on land, even with animal predation, the clothes and other items are going to be there.  But the water is not the ocean.  So better chance something shows up especially the things he had on him.  I am a firm believer he got out.  Hell, it took months, but even many items from flight 370 washed up in Madagascar. 
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4019 on: March 03, 2021, 05:27:07 PM »
The man that founded Tektronix actually drowned in the Columbia River. His body was never found. So, if Cooper landed in the water, it’s possible that nothing would have ever been found.