Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 283864 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3885 on: January 16, 2021, 01:56:58 PM »
McNally gave me his number so I could contact him through texting, I asked him how far the steps opened before getting on them and his reply was..2.5 feet only opening another half a foot. this could be due to his weight being distributed over a wider area since he was on his ass sliding down. he was traveling much faster than 305 which had a greater wind load on the stairs pushing them upward. I guess you all got a lot of snow up north. he sent about 8 pics of the area outside his home.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 03:26:49 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3886 on: January 16, 2021, 02:17:44 PM »
For those reading and seeing the name McNally wondering the connection. he was a copycat hijacker several months after Cooper's jump. his full name is Martin McNally and hijacked an American Airlines Boeing 727 in June of 1972. we have exchanged dozens of emails about the hijacking and other topics for the last 6 months or so.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3887 on: January 16, 2021, 04:57:40 PM »
Quote
7:36 est. take off

(7:40 est) 4 minutes after takeoff Tina went forward (Tina)
7:42 air stair light on Tina with us, (Pilot)
7:45 have stair light on (still), (Pilot)
(7:50 est) = 10 min later Cooper call can’t get stairs down (Tina)
7:54 Tina said Cooper has “knapsack" tied to waist


Fly, examine what you have written. Tina was already in the cockpit prior to 7:50. you are taking 10 minutes has a timestamp vs estimation. Cooper called very early about not getting the stairs down. she seen him tying the money to his waste as she closed the curtain. that would be the 7:40 mark. she never went past the cockpit door until they landed. why would the same events happen twice. it's very specific detailing he can't get them down at the start of the flight and not 20 minutes after the flight or during or past the 7:54 mark.

nothing is on the transcripts about any flash or any lights past the 7:45 report. these are all after the fact and could possibly be inaccurate.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 04:58:04 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3888 on: January 16, 2021, 05:14:22 PM »
The 7:54 report is the pilots relaying what Tina seen earlier in the flight. the same for the contents of the briefcase describing the bomb. they are simply relaying what she seen minutes to hours before since the bomb was well known by then.

When she closed the curtain and Cooper is standing by the door tying money to himself with a parachute on, one can only assume he is ready to jump. that's what they were reporting. it wasn't as if it happened seconds before the 7-54 mark.

Tina got in the cockpit and then they had to deal with Cooper and the trouble he was having. a gap in reporting probably occurred since they had there hands full at the time and then reported what Tina said.

It's actually the ground that provokes the response about the knapsack. they radio saying the quicker they believe he's gone the sooner they can land. they respond with what Tina seen earlier in the flight.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 05:33:37 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3889 on: January 16, 2021, 05:45:19 PM »
7:57 they ground radios for Tina to describe to the pilots the briefcase contents. then some discussion about elevations air temps and indicate staying at 10k till he has left the plane. 8:05 they report trying to contact Cooper twice and get a response of "everything is ok" nothing happens because they go right into possibly landing at Medford which is before Reno. this is discussed all the way to 8:10 then report the oscillations at 8:12
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3890 on: January 17, 2021, 12:52:59 PM »
The pressure gauge is a factor in the steps momentarily closing. so is the statement about the stairs being lowered. that's in the transcripts and time stamped. newspapers and 302's have been noted having error's. if Cooper did anything with the stairs between 7:45 and 8:10 it would of been noted as all the other actions were.

The document (302) marked 12888 is confusing because the events are not in order. It gives a timeline of Cooper calling about the stairs after 8:10 and then makes a claim of the stairs being fully extended. then Cooper responds with a no.

It's marked and stamped on the transcripts that Cooper is having trouble with the stairs. it's fact they were communicating with him noted on the transcripts. Rataczak backs this up on the HBO documentary.

He communicates by inter-phone having trouble with the stairs. a couple minutes later they report a light and partially extended stairs. the conversation here could of lead up to the answer of "no" approx. 20 minutes go by and the last communication is reported at 8:05 indicating "everything is ok" which is far from a "no"

The ground radio's about "10 minutes later" the quicker they know Cooper is gone, the "the quicker u can land" this prompts the pilot to report what Tina seen earlier in the flight while returning to the Cockpit and shouldn't be noted as if it just occurred.

The transcripts have faults as well. nothing is noted about any lights or reading from the EP. after they believe Cooper jumped. a gap in communication can be seen where you would think a lot of discussion would take place. Rataczak makes a claim after the fact of being 99% sure he left the plane but the transcripts tell a different story. at 8:52 they give a report of 55 minutes as the last communication with Cooper. that would be 7:57. do we now run like the wind with that report?

They term used for fully extended could be a reference to Cooper being on the stairs causing them to extend. things can get mixed up easily when gather information. somebody needs to try and get answers from the surviving crew before it's too late. the manually recorded transcripts give the impression of possibly "fully extended" by stating they were "extended further". this could be confused with fully extended. people interpret things differently..
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 01:07:13 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3891 on: January 17, 2021, 01:10:18 PM »
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[Bill Rataczak has been quoted as saying something like: at some point there was a sudden pressure pulse felt in the ears, that the enunciator light went out momentarily, ]

Many thanks for the replies. I located this reference in Skipp Porteous' interview with Mr Rataczak, dated approximately 2009, posted at dropzone.com. The quotation is as follows: "... we felt a tremendous amount of pressure bump in our ears ... We also got confirmation on the Flight Engineer’s panel indicating that the stairs had momentarily closed."
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3892 on: January 17, 2021, 02:41:44 PM »
The Harrison note differ as well. the manual transcripts stamp a time of 8:52 with Cooper's last communication at 55 minutes. Harrison has it documented at 9:00 which makes sense with the 55 minutes. then we have several references of the famous 23 miles DME from Portland. you would hope to find an 8 minute gap but instead find a 4 minute gap with other reports. he writes twice 8:22 but in the last record of events he writes 8:18. Harrison writes a time of 9:52 with 305 being 58 miles DME from RBL  Vor. the transcripts report 10:05 giving a 13 minute gap.

R99, any input..I realize the teletype will have a delay but will the timing differ with each transmission?

Dfs, can you post the entire interveiw?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 02:44:38 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3893 on: January 17, 2021, 11:52:00 PM »
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The Harrison note differ as well. the manual transcripts stamp a time of 8:52 with Cooper's last communication at 55 minutes. Harrison has it documented at 9:00 which makes sense with the 55 minutes. then we have several references of the famous 23 miles DME from Portland. you would hope to find an 8 minute gap but instead find a 4 minute gap with other reports. he writes twice 8:22 but in the last record of events he writes 8:18. Harrison writes a time of 9:52 with 305 being 58 miles DME from RBL  Vor. the transcripts report 10:05 giving a 13 minute gap.

R99, any input..I realize the teletype will have a delay but will the timing differ with each transmission?

Dfs, can you post the entire interveiw?

The MOCA (Minimum Obstacle Clearance Altitude) and the MCA (Minimum Communications Altitude) for the segment of V-23 south of Portland are both 10,000 feet ASL.  The MCA refers to communications with Air Traffic Control sites and not to the ARINC sites.

The "FBI Notes" state at 9:42 PM PST direct communications with the airliner through the ARINC radio patch and teletype system were not possible at that time.  Instead, UAL 4331 and WAL 328, who were apparently flying high enough to still be in communication with the ARINC system, relayed communications between the hijacked airliner and the ARINC system which were then passed to NWA stations in Seattle and Minneapolis.

Consequently, there would be a greater delay between reporting the location of the airliner and that information being received by NWA stations than if the airliner itself was in direct contact with an ARINC station.  Also, the time would vary depending on the work load on the ARINC system and the length of the messages.

The FBI Notes also state that the airliner was told to contact the SFC (San Francisco) ARINC station at 10:30 PM PST.  See these notes as well as the Oakland ATC Center transcripts for more information on this and the above.  Remember that the airliner was switched to the Oakland ATC Center at 8:45 PM PST.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 11:53:44 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3894 on: January 18, 2021, 07:25:18 AM »
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Dfs, can you post the entire interveiw?

The interview appears to be almost a whole chapter from the book "Into the Blast". I don't know whether the authors gave permission for such a lengthy quotation to be made public. Having said that, I think this link will bring it up:
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 07:28:23 AM by Dfs346 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3895 on: January 18, 2021, 07:59:15 AM »
Thanks, I already found it last night. I seen where Blevins stated for years about the light that wasn't true. posting that Rat and Anderson seen the light go on and off. another reason you have to watch what is written. Robert posted it in 2012, I believe.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 08:05:55 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3896 on: February 18, 2021, 05:27:07 PM »
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anyone know the names of the F-106 pilots? Over at the F-106 facebook page, there's a post that one of them was Roy Keyt of the 318th FIS (now deceased).

Here's a photo of the late Lt. Col. (then Major) Roy Keyt, pilot of the second F-106. Lead pilot was Major Frank Loesch.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3897 on: February 21, 2021, 12:41:57 AM »
I mentioned this in the News thread, but I wanted to post the data here. First, below is a link to the relevant article:

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The flight departed at 1:04. At 1:08 as it was over Broomfield, CO, the engine blew and debris fell on the Northmoor and Red Leaf neighborhoods. The plane immediately turned to return to the airport. Approximately, three to five minutes later, more debris came off the engine subsequently landing in Commons Park.

As indicated on the flight path map attached below, both debris drops were located directly along the flight path. There was no rain and the wind was blowing at 15 mph at 220 degrees (southwest). The plane in question was a Boeing 777 and the right engine is the one that exploded and dropped debris. It maintained 10,000 feet and traveling at approximately 350 mph for most of the time in which it was raining debris.

Some caveats, whereas the Hicks placard was quite small and light, most of the parts of the engine were metal. Still, there are several cellphone videos of small pieces of what appear to be plastic gently floating to the ground.

Despite these facts, it would appear that most (if not all) of the debris fell straight down with little deviation from the flight path despite the wind. I encourage everyone to factcheck me and add their own thoughts.

ETA: Here is a great video that includes the flight communications along with the flight path:

« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 12:59:56 AM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3898 on: February 21, 2021, 01:07:00 AM »
Debris falling...about 1:12 into the video

..
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3899 on: February 21, 2021, 01:49:11 AM »
For more specific debris location, there are photos of debris indicating that it fell on the east side of the soccer fields at Commons Park in Broomfield.

That is virtually underneath the flight path. There seems to be no deviation from the flight path despite 15 mph winds from the southwest. I’d be interested to know if any smaller, lighter debris will be found miles from the flight path.