Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 371252 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1890 on: April 23, 2019, 03:27:16 PM »
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I'm going to ask the question again to see if perhaps someone who is reading the site privately but not posting has an answer. If so, I am easy to reach via email per the address mentioned at the end of my Daily DB Cooper Bite videos:

In 1971, how was a flight path put together after the fact?

I've read multiple comments that state SAGE radar, along with data from the jet's flight recorder, along with radio transcripts was used to craft the flight path.

If this is true, my question is WHY? If SAGE is the "be-all end-all" why is anything else needed? What does flight recorder data or radio transcript data bring to the party?

This is very important, because if there are multiple components that come together from multiple sources, then all of this data is thrown in the mix to generate the flight path "after the fact," this provides for more opportunities for a mistake to be made.

Anyone? Any actual knowledge of how this flight path was constructed?

Nope!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1891 on: April 23, 2019, 04:39:12 PM »
Tom told me a lot of things last night in our conversation. the map wasn't just "thrown" together. he has a lot more info than we do. I'm trying to piece everything together so some sort of reasoning can take place.
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1892 on: April 23, 2019, 04:50:59 PM »
It's a loaded question since we don't have all the details yet. We all know that, and short of a video of someone making the map the radical skeptics can always claim we're just mindless FBI apologists (or something). However, and it was Hominid who first came up with this, we can tell a lot about the map just by giving it a close examination. The map has red markings corresponding to exact lat/long positions. The marks are perfectly perpendicular, meaning the markings were done on a set up like a drafting table with a square and triangle. Likely, this marks were made from a single source, most likely a readout of the radar data. The map has a military GEOREF connotation on it, suggesting it was made by someone familiar with the system. We have documentation that the map came from the military, so this fits. The heavy grease pen (or felt tip pen, I can't tell) was made by someone else much later. Probably the FBI since they would be concerned with a continuous flight path. There, not difficult. The map is significant and likely tells us the actual radar data from the night of the skyjacking.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1893 on: April 23, 2019, 05:06:32 PM »
When you look at the map using the coords provided you will see the placard is 468 feet west of the the map.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1894 on: April 23, 2019, 05:12:48 PM »
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When you look at the map using the coords provided you will see the placard is 468 feet west of the the map.

I'm not sure how the coordinates were derived but my version was taken directly from the FBI yellow map. I painstakingly plotted each turn from the yellow map to Google Earth. There is plenty of identifying information on the yellow map to pinpoint the turn locations very accurately. The straight lines are obviously no issue. The placard coordinate, which is also a GPS location, is 8/10ths of a mile SW upwind from the FBI Flight Path.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1895 on: April 23, 2019, 05:16:43 PM »
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It's a loaded question since we don't have all the details yet. We all know that, and short of a video of someone making the map the radical skeptics can always claim we're just mindless FBI apologists (or something). However, and it was Hominid who first came up with this, we can tell a lot about the map just by giving it a close examination. The map has red markings corresponding to exact lat/long positions. The marks are perfectly perpendicular, meaning the markings were done on a set up like a drafting table with a square and triangle. Likely, this marks were made from a single source, most likely a readout of the radar data. The map has a military GEOREF connotation on it, suggesting it was made by someone familiar with the system. We have documentation that the map came from the military, so this fits. The heavy grease pen (or felt tip pen, I can't tell) was made by someone else much later. Probably the FBI since they would be concerned with a continuous flight path. There, not difficult. The map is significant and likely tells us the actual radar data from the night of the skyjacking.

Then what is all of this talk about using flight recorder data and transcript conversations between the crew and Northwest Operations and Seattle Center? How were the plots derived? What about the three red plots hanging out in the open in west Portland?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1896 on: April 23, 2019, 05:17:52 PM »
How did you make your longitude and latitude marking from both maps?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1897 on: April 23, 2019, 05:22:29 PM »
I used the long. & lat. marking from both aviation maps. the FBI map and Skyvector. I plotted different locations on the FBI map and crossed them over to Google and found them accurate.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1898 on: April 23, 2019, 05:23:57 PM »
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How did you make your longitude and latitude marking from both maps?

I used the actual FBI Yellow Map which incorporates a lot of detail in it including tributaries, small roads, etc.

I would identify a precise point on the yellow map and then plot the same spot on GoogleMaps. Then drafting a straight line between two points was easy using GoogleMaps. Of course, it also provided the ability to measure precise distances.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1899 on: April 23, 2019, 05:25:18 PM »
The way I've done it is much more accurate.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1900 on: April 23, 2019, 05:27:39 PM »
GoogleMaps shows a closest point "placard-to-flight path" of 4,319 feet.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1901 on: April 23, 2019, 05:28:55 PM »
I've checked the several times....
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1902 on: April 23, 2019, 05:29:50 PM »
Do you have a slight-right turn at Sightly--just south of Toutle?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1903 on: April 23, 2019, 05:31:22 PM »
The degree markings on the sectional map is what I used to cross over to Skyvector that has the same system. I fix the plot and put the center crosshair over the location and the coords register at the top right.

sectional maps are only good for about 6 months I believe but that's due to airway changes and obstructions if I'm correct.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1904 on: April 23, 2019, 05:33:21 PM »
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Do you have a slight-right turn at Sightly--just south of Toutle?

I have every turn seen with the coords. this includes the jog between 8:02 and 8:05. the placard is between those two..