Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 403312 times)

Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4485 on: June 02, 2022, 10:40:54 PM »
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The first communication about the aftstairs was at 6:21 which indicated DBC wanted the stairs down after takeoff. It seems that all other evidence points to DBC wanting the stairs deployed at takeoff which caused the pilots great consternation.

Even in her post flight interview, Mucklow says DBC requested the stairs down at takeoff.

Clearly nothing definitive, but I’d say the preponderance of evidence points to DBC wanting them down at takeoff.

The possibility of Cooper initially wanting the stairs extended after takeoff is I think a more recent revelation, it is in at least one 302 in part 64, see attached pic.  But as far as I have seen and read, most of the documented dialogue between Cooper and the crew at this point in the hijacking have not mentioned this.

If it is in fact what he initially wanted, I am just not sure how much to read into it.  It doesn't necessarily mean that he intended to fly all the way to Mexico with the stairs closed.  Sure, it could be a tell or sign that the fact the plane now needed to land and refuel caused him to have to alter his original plan and get off of the plane ASAP because he didn't want to land again.  But it also could just mean that he changed his request for a different concern, maybe he was worried that he or the crew would not be able to get the stairs open in flight and thought it would just be better to make sure they are extended before takeoff. 

My bigger question regarding where he really wanted to jump is why not choose a flight and airport further south and closer to Mexico if that is truly where he wanted to go ?  Why choose a flight from the Pacific Northwest ?  Were there no 727 flights out of airports closer to the Mexican boarder ?  Anyway, lots of variables, I am keeping an open mind, definitely not dismissing this theory.   But I am still in the camp where I think he asked for Mexico first and foremost to get the plane flying south for a Washington state based jump and secondly to throw off law enforcement.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 10:51:14 PM by JAG »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4486 on: June 02, 2022, 10:51:21 PM »
He said no stopping to Mexico...how would he expect the plane to get to Mexico in the configuration he requested..the plane can't make the trip in the right configuration..
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4487 on: June 02, 2022, 11:39:36 PM »
Cooper was told both reason why the plane wouldn't make Mexico from Seattle, he was stubborn. I just don't think he was going to stick around on that plane. the biggest error is the failure to communicate properly about where they believe he jumped.

They were asked to go in the back and look but they didn't. then they were asking him to put the stairs up prior to landing when he was long gone. that gave him a huge edge if he survived...
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4488 on: June 03, 2022, 12:07:06 AM »
There is certainly contradictory evidence Re: the aftstairs. However, most principals agree he wanted them down in takeoff causing great concern among the crew.

At the end of the day, we don’t know because the record is confused.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 09:56:29 AM by Chaucer »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4489 on: June 03, 2022, 01:50:55 PM »
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There is certainly contradictory evidence Re: the aftstairs. However, most principals agree he wanted them down in takeoff causing great concern among the crew.

At the end of the day, we don’t know because the record is confused.

After the argument between Cooper and Rataczak ended with Cooper agreeing to take off with the stairs fully retracted, Cooper is quoted somewhere as telling Tina that he knew the airliner could take off with the stairs partially down.

Cooper was apparently more familiar with the aft stairs than the NWA flight crew.  This strongly suggests that Cooper had some prior connection with Boeing or some US Government agency or contractor.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4490 on: June 03, 2022, 03:10:57 PM »
While the initial radio transmission at 6:21 indicates that he wanted the airstairs deployed after takeoff, all of the crew interviews uniformly state that he wanted them down during takeoff. They say that DBC wanted stairs down at takeoff, and the pilots refused and told him it couldn't be done. He answered, "Yes, they can..." but then relented and said, "the cockpit can put it down after they get airborne."

Regardless, even if he DID want the airstairs deployed in flight, that doesn't indicate he planned on a later jump. His behavior leads one to believe that he wanted off that aircraft as soon as possible.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 03:15:32 PM by Chaucer »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4491 on: June 03, 2022, 04:52:25 PM »
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While the initial radio transmission at 6:21 indicates that he wanted the airstairs deployed after takeoff, all of the crew interviews uniformly state that he wanted them down during takeoff. They say that DBC wanted stairs down at takeoff, and the pilots refused and told him it couldn't be done. He answered, "Yes, they can..." but then relented and said, "the cockpit can put it down after they get airborne."

Regardless, even if he DID want the airstairs deployed in flight, that doesn't indicate he planned on a later jump. His behavior leads one to believe that he wanted off that aircraft as soon as possible.

My understanding of the situation is that Cooper planned to jump early in the flight and perhaps just south of Seattle.  But the procedure for lowering the stairs on a commercial 727 was not what he expected.  Consequently, he kept Tina on the aircraft, after apparently telling her she could leave with the other stewardesses.  And despite Tina telling him how to do it, Cooper still had trouble lowering the stairs.

It must be remembered that anyone using the 727 for other than commercial airline operations, would probably specify the means and controls that they would want for lowering the stairs if such an action was necessary for their operations.  While Cooper may have been familiar with lowering the stairs on 727s that were used in SEA and elsewhere, this may have been the first time that he had seen the stairs control panel in a standard commercial 727.
 

Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4492 on: June 04, 2022, 12:36:31 PM »
Whilst those airstairs are up, he is trapped with no means of escape. I can fully understand why he wanted them down/open ASAP regardless of where he wanted to jump.
 
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Offline WalterRaleigh

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4493 on: June 04, 2022, 07:28:37 PM »
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Whilst those airstairs are up, he is trapped with no means of escape. I can fully understand why he wanted them down/open ASAP regardless of where he wanted to jump.

I agree.

I also think Cooper was successful because he was a engineer/pilot type, a "checklist guy".  After the delay in the fueling and getting the money, lowering the aftstairs was next on his list and he was anxious to "get this show on the road".
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4494 on: June 06, 2022, 01:21:45 PM »
You all seem to agree he planned this very well.  But as well as he planned this there are those that do not believe he had plans after the jump based on things like what he was wearing and the weather and all.  A fair argument but one can also argue he had help on the ground, or if one believes it was Old Richard McCoy as I do (about 85% ish), a former green beret is not going to just lay down and die.  This will never end likely unless a smoking gun arises and those damn cigarettes would have helped.  So many stupid videos coming out still just beating a dead horse over and over. I wont name names, but you know who you are!!!
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4495 on: June 09, 2022, 05:07:38 PM »
For those of you who are committed to the so-called FBI flight path, go to DropZone and take a look at Georger's post #57121 and my reply to it.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4496 on: June 09, 2022, 08:16:23 PM »
If we assume the yellow map is accurate then, yes, 305 did pass west of PDX.

After it crossed over the Columbia from the east.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4497 on: June 09, 2022, 09:07:58 PM »
If there was no cloud coverage the crew would see PDX easily to the east..this is at 10,000 feet just after crossing the Columbia.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4498 on: June 11, 2022, 01:52:23 PM »
Quote
For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.

That's not the case in the matter, they were given the sky in order to keep everyone safe. most regulations went out the door with this problem. I believe they are expected to stay within the boundaries, unless in controlled airspace. why have them 8 miles wide?

Unless authorized by ATC, to operate an aircraft within controlled airspace under IFR, pilots must either fly ALONG the centerline when on a Federal airway or, on routes other than Federal airways, along the direct course between NAVAIDs or fixes defining the route

Just because a simple route can be layed out certainly doesn't imply that's what occurred? none of the crew said anything about why they would be looking miles away from where they actually were, or mention how simple they could layout the path within several minutes..
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 02:01:36 PM by Shutter »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4499 on: June 11, 2022, 05:04:28 PM »
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For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.

That's not the case in the matter, they were given the sky in order to keep everyone safe. most regulations went out the door with this problem. I believe they are expected to stay within the boundaries, unless in controlled airspace. why have them 8 miles wide?

Unless authorized by ATC, to operate an aircraft within controlled airspace under IFR, pilots must either fly ALONG the centerline when on a Federal airway or, on routes other than Federal airways, along the direct course between NAVAIDs or fixes defining the route

Just because a simple route can be layed out certainly doesn't imply that's what occurred? none of the crew said anything about why they would be looking miles away from where they actually were, or mention how simple they could layout the path within several minutes..

It is certainly true that the airliner crew were told they could make any deviation necessary to V-23 and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  But that does not explain why they were wandering so far from the V-23 centerline, particularly in the Portland area.

South of Portland, the airliner would almost certainly want to stay on the centerline of V-23 due to concerns with the MOCA (Minimum Obstacle Clearance Altitude) and MCA (Minimum Communications Altitude) among other things.  In some segments of V-23, 10,000 is the minimum altitude that any aircraft could meet those minimums.  Even in the Portland area, the MCA for the Malay Intersection is 9500 feet.

Just staying on the centerline of V-23 does not require a superhuman effort.  If the airliner wanted to bypass Portland with what they thought was a bomb onboard, the west side would be the logical choice.  Even now Georger has admitted that his sources, apparently including FBI agents, were saying 10 years ago that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side.   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 05:07:22 PM by Robert99 »