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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 755774 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3780 on: December 02, 2020, 12:07:00 AM »
Hominid told me to disregard the 14 miles and try to reach 19 miles. that was one of the first tests we did. I  think I fell short 3 or 4 miles trying to reach 14 miles DME. once we reached the 19 miles the first leg was tried and reached after doing the speed adjustments. it was always around 7:59 to 8:00 arrival time.

Harrison marks two time frames (8:22-8:18). one matches the transcripts while the other doesn't no other time changes are made? I have to read them more to try and see any difference.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 12:16:28 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3781 on: December 02, 2020, 12:42:25 AM »
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You don't know if it was a constant speed. this was the time frame the plane slowed down and we still haven't a clue if the plane tookoff and went with wheels up till getting to 14 miles DME and slowing down?  the 19 miles DME can be reached.

One simulation test showed the 14 miles couldn't be reached at low speeds but could reach the 19 miles DME.

The bug speed of 170 KIAS was determined by the performance engineers in Minneapolis to be the ideal speed for best range with the configuration specified by Cooper.  When the airliner took off from Seattle no one knew if the airliner could even make it to Reno under the specified circumstances.  That is why the fuel flow for each engine was repeatedly passed through the ARINC telephone patch to the performance engineers in Minneapolis.  It was only when the airliner had reached the Portland area that the flight crew was informed that they could probably make it to Reno.

I am the one who said that Cooper jumped in the immediate vicinity of Tina Bar.  Basically, the only thing EU and I agree on is the Western Flight Path.

There is a story in some of the paper work that Rataczak almost retracted the wheels during the take off but put them back down and they stayed down during the remainder of the flight to Reno.  They were not retracted and lowered at different times in the flight.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 12:50:05 AM by Robert99 »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3782 on: December 02, 2020, 12:54:53 AM »
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Hominid told me to disregard the 14 miles and try to reach 19 miles. that was one of the first tests we did. I  think I fell short 3 or 4 miles trying to reach 14 miles DME. once we reached the 19 miles the first leg was tried and reached after doing the speed adjustments. it was always around 7:59 to 8:00 arrival time.

Harrison marks two time frames (8:22-8:18). one matches the transcripts while the other doesn't no other time changes are made? I have to read them more to try and see any difference.

There are differences of about two minutes each in the times from the ATC radio transcripts and the ARINC teletype transcripts for the 14 and 19 mile points.  Check the so-called FBI notes.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3783 on: December 02, 2020, 06:33:55 AM »
I would like to see the paperwork by Rataczak. my point was the speed during takeoff and leveling off at 7,000. the plane is slowed down so Cooper can attempt to get the stairs all the way down. this would be in the same area of time issues or the 14 miles is just wrong as the asterisk shows.

I am aware of the optimal speed calculated and discussed during the early portion of the flight. the flaps were at 30 degree's for a short period as well. that was determined to not being optimal either. none of this has anything to do with changing the path but does with timing. the speed was 160 and flaps at 30 degree's that caused concern. I believe the Harrison notes state 155 vs 160 knots. I recall the fuel flow being pretty steady at around 4500. the speeds shown on the transcripts were 160, 170 and one notation of being in the area of 170/180 knots if not mistaken.
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3784 on: December 02, 2020, 09:18:00 AM »
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Does anyone have a better quality copy of these images taken from the chase plane of the sled test flight on 01.06.1972?

Can anyone confirm that these images are from Ralph Himmelsbach's book "NORJAK"?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3785 on: December 02, 2020, 12:14:41 PM »
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Does anyone have a better quality copy of these images taken from the chase plane of the sled test flight on 01.06.1972?

Can anyone confirm that these images are from Ralph Himmelsbach's book "NORJAK"?

There are two pictures of the sled tests in Himmelsbach's book.  Page 80 has a picture of the stairs partly down.  Page 81 has a picture of the "sled" dropping away, but with a rope or lanyard running back up to the aircraft, and the stairs are almost completely closed.
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Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3786 on: December 04, 2020, 05:01:38 PM »
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If you are looking for an exact time for that pressure bump, then you are out of luck unless the FAA/FBI release more information.  In the meantime, the 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST time estimates is as good as anything that is available.

That doesn't make sense when you look at the available evidence and testimony. Rataczak makes note of where they believe he jumped on transcripts and actual words. if the FBI was aware of a secret or a different location they held back on the transcripts then why would they search in the wrong spot? the totality doesn't agree with the assumption. as for the timing. that would put him several minutes behind of landing on Tbar or in the area of Tbar.

Lets say they marked the spot. now, the FBI is aware and we are not...again, they looked in the wrong spot for no reason?

The 8:11 PM PST time is in the FBI Notes and is described as being the best available estimate.

Several years ago, I posted information on the flight path, what is now called the Western Flight Path, and it put the airliner over Tina Bar at 8:12 PM.  That agreement surprised me.

Presumably, the FBI had a reason for searching whatever area they searched.  But that doesn't mean they were searching the area where Cooper actually jumped.

If the FBI searched the areas where Cooper jumped and didn't find him, then they need to search the areas where Cooper didn't jump and he will be there.  He definitely jumped somewhere.
Ugh, I'll get spit on for this, but if the Western path/bump time lined up that well with Tina Bar, Occam's Razor would dictate that is the most likely reason the money ended up there. No other, more convoluted way has been conclusively proven and the only thing known for sure is the money DID end up at Tina Bar. *dons raincoat*
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3787 on: December 04, 2020, 06:14:07 PM »
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<>images taken from the chase plane of the sled test flight on 01.06.1972

This film frame is from the archived copy of n467us.com. DB Cooper Part 52 of 53.pdf, page 208, indicates that the film was released to Unsolved Mysteries/History Channel, but subsequently denied to Granite Productions and all FOIA requesters. Does anyone know whether any part of the film was ever broadcast?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 06:15:32 PM by Dfs346 »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3788 on: December 09, 2020, 11:15:50 AM »
What are you hoping to find if the video is found?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3789 on: December 09, 2020, 11:28:45 AM »
A stuntman did the jump for a movie. the plane was traveling at a 150 knots..

..
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3790 on: December 09, 2020, 11:59:40 AM »
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What are you hoping to find if the video is found?

I think it would add to our understanding of the sled test flight if we could discern (more clearly than from the photos in Ralph Himmelsbach's book and on the archived copy of n467.com):
* whether there was one or more than one drop
* the flap setting at the time of the drop or drops
* whether the sled was on a static line or a free drop
* the movement of the ventral air stair before and after the drop.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3791 on: December 09, 2020, 12:57:20 PM »
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What are you hoping to find if the video is found?

I think it would add to our understanding of the sled test flight if we could discern (more clearly than from the photos in Ralph Himmelsbach's book and on the archived copy of n467.com):
* whether there was one or more than one drop
* the flap setting at the time of the drop or drops
* whether the sled was on a static line or a free drop
* the movement of the ventral air stair before and after the drop.

If not mistaken they had 3 sleds. the first was dropped with someone on the stairs. a line was attached so they could drop it while not being on the stairs. a line can be seen in the photo's. I have pictures of multiple sleds. the configuration of the plane was exact of the evening of the hijacking.

The stairs will go up and return to a 30 degree position, I believe. I have several pics of the testing if you need to see them.

Looking over the photo's it appears only one sled can be seen but matching sand bags are in the area where Cooper's seat was that was taken out for the testing. the lanyard can also be seen.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 02:00:30 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3792 on: December 09, 2020, 01:31:07 PM »
Here is some pics of the flight test..


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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3793 on: December 10, 2020, 03:22:12 PM »
Posts of Note: Dfs346

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Interesting:  DFS 346 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 03:35:27 PM by georger »
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3794 on: December 10, 2020, 04:14:33 PM »
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Here is some pics of the flight test..

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Many thanks, but could not access that folder.
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