Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 770030 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3315 on: October 15, 2020, 03:53:48 PM »
So, you're assuming that since it was damaged in the hijacking, it was quickly repaired to put it back into service?
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3316 on: October 15, 2020, 03:59:00 PM »
I believe the same jet flew the crew back to Seattle the next day--Thanksgiving. Then at some point shortly thereafter the jet was put back into service. It was obviously repaired before it re-entered service.

I don't know where the jet was repaired. I suspect that what was left of the fiberglass skirts was removed in Reno but perhaps not replaced with new skirts until Seattle or Minneapolis.
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3317 on: October 15, 2020, 04:24:10 PM »
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Let me provide some background on my involvement with the Western Flight Path.

At first I saw the FBI Flight Path and didn't question it. Why would I? However, it didn't take long before I realized that there were some major problems that I could not reasonably explain away. Specifically, the fact that nothing had been found in the FBI search along the FBI Flight Path, and the fact that the money was found at Tena Bar.

Later I came upon R99's analysis of the placard drift that was posted on Tom Kaye's site--I believe the conclusion was that it drifted 2.7 miles to the northeast. This wasn't a shocking thing in my mind but notable.

However, I still had a hard time explaining why 305 was flying so erratically according to the FBI Flight Path especially considering the pilots were afraid that there was a live bomb in back that could easily detonate if it fell off a chair, and because the pilots appeared to be extra sensitive about DBC's "No funny stuff" comment." Indeed, they didn't even squawk 7700 because they were afraid DBC would interpret that as "funny stuff."

Then I read R99's theory about the jet flying directly from Maylay to Canby--I don't believe he referred to this as the Western Flight Path per se because I think I came up with that term--but it made a lot of sense considering some of the problems that I identified with the FBI Flight Path.

Later I got my hands on an actual placard which enabled me to provide R99 with some updated size and weight numbers for the placard that he could use to reevaluate the placard's drift. Also, Tom Kaye provided updated and more accurate weather data. In the end, R99's new placard drift analysis showed a much longer drift for the placard which I immediately realized created a very big problem for the FBI Flight Path and also lined up perfectly with the Western Flight Path.

Next, there was the discovery of the FBI file that told the story of the fiberglass skirt find. This too immediately suggested a problem with the FBI Flight Path and pointed to a path out of Seattle that I suspected all along--in other words, a due south departure and heading for the first several miles as the plane gained speed and altitude with gear down, flaps down, and airstairs ajar.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

I closing, I realize that R99 and I carry a unique burden in that we are obligated to prove that the Western Flight Path is right and that the FBI Flight Path is wrong. I say this because we are the ones challenging conventional wisdom which places the burden on us to convince you that we're right, and not necessarily the other way around.

Nonetheless, I think a thorough assessment of the facts as we know them tend to support the Western Flight Path and disprove the FBI Flight Path. Of course, I realize others are going to disagree.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.


Why would you think the above? Based on what evidence vs. just dreaming something up?

You are saying everyone who worked on the history of the flight path back in the 2000s including all principle players interviewed - were all WRONG AND LYING? Is this what you are saying?

You are saying the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) didn't know what they were doing - and were all incompetent and wrong! You are saying the margin of error these folks were operating in was so large, that 305 was actually anywhere on a north-south line between Seattle and Portland! No wonder some people say Cooper bailed over Mt St Helens, or just outside Reno !  8)

That's one helluva a claim. What it is is complete historical ignorance on your part. But that's fine. Some people still insist the world is flat. Yours is a Conspiracy Theory that dismisses all historical facts! What your theory has exposed is that there does not exist on any DB Cooper Forum an accurate comprehensive historical account of how the socalled FBI Flight Path was put together and by whom. An account that everyone can accept because it is true. That only proves that Reality shows on forums and are not Reality!

There is some profound gap in people's educations at Forums that wont even allow them to use the words:  McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) !     ;D

GEORGER there are times when you have your head up your ass and this is one of them. I am not accusing anyone of lying. Where do I ever accuse anyone of lying?

Also, I'm not accusing anyone of being involved in a conspiracy. Look up the definition of conspiracy. Conspiracy implies malice. Where do I ever accuse anyone of a conspiracy.

How do you respond to Major Dawson's comments? Apparently the FBI Flight Path was not unanimous at McChord.

What I am saying is that people make mistakes. Now if you want to debate that point I think the argument is over before it even begins.

So, I have my head up my ass because: McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) developed the flight path.

Amazing.

I must also have my head up my ass because the Hydrogen alpha line sits at 6563 angstroms!  And 'water flows down hill'.

Is there anything else you can accuse me of in order to achieve your goal of changing DB Cooper history ?  Five years from today which will historians be discussing? Your theory OR what the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) did?   :-\   

Which matters most? Your theories or the records of McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) ?  Who has whose head up whose ass ? Is stopping Georger key to your agenda? I suggest history has the greater force vs anything Georger says or does! Your whole focus is wrong.  8) 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 04:30:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3318 on: October 15, 2020, 04:49:30 PM »
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Can anyone attest to the validity of the photo I attached below? It is purportedly from Geoffrey Gray's book and was  taken at the airport in Reno at some undetermined amount of time after the plane landed.

If this is true, it clearly shows that their was no damage to the aft stairs paneling.

So, again, can anyone verify?

I think this photograph was made at SEATAC after the airliner returned to Seattle on Thanksgiving afternoon (November 25th).  The airliner was checked out by the FBI in Seattle, repaired, and back in line service by November 27 or so according to information in the George Harrison papers.

The photographs from the FBI drop tests in January used the very same aircraft that was hijacked.  Photos of those drops are somewhere on this site and you can check them to see if the "modesty panels" on the stairs were removed for the tests in order to facilitate the photography.

The modesty panel on the left side may have been removed by the FBI as evidence.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3319 on: October 15, 2020, 04:55:47 PM »
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I believe the same jet flew the crew back to Seattle the next day--Thanksgiving. Then at some point shortly thereafter the jet was put back into service. It was obviously repaired before it re-entered service.

I don't know where the jet was repaired. I suspect that what was left of the fiberglass skirts was removed in Reno but perhaps not replaced with new skirts until Seattle or Minneapolis.

I didn't see this before my last post so let me add a  bit more information.  The airliner was repaired in Seattle.  I believe the seats that Cooper used were removed at that time and that is when the tie was found.  With Boeing also located in Seattle, it would be very simple to obtain the necessary replacement parts and to get any experts from Boeing to help out if needed.

The skin damage to the stairs from dragging on the runway at Reno was apparently very minor.  The tower people said the stairs did not touch the runway until the airliner had slowed and was turning off the runway.  Since the skin on the bottom of the stairs was not a structural load bearing item, it could probably be repaired with a minor skin patch and a few rivets if necessary. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 05:05:29 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3320 on: October 15, 2020, 05:01:14 PM »
Whoa. The tie was found in Seattle? Post-Nov. 24? Never heard that before. Where'd you get that?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3321 on: October 15, 2020, 05:07:57 PM »
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Whoa. The tie was found in Seattle? Post-Nov. 24? Never heard that before. Where'd you get that?

Somewhere in the Cooper literature is a statement to the effect that the FBI in Seattle (or maybe even Portland) had the tie by the Monday following the hijacking.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3322 on: October 15, 2020, 06:17:46 PM »
 Interesting info regarding the stairs not incurring much damage during landing. I had suspected that the damage to the staircase panels might have happy during landing - especially since most indications are that their was very little wind entered the cabin with the aft stairs down. I wonder what mechanisms would act on the stairs with such force as to break the fiberglass panels?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3323 on: October 15, 2020, 06:40:40 PM »
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Interesting info regarding the stairs not incurring much damage during landing. I had suspected that the damage to the staircase panels might have happy during landing - especially since most indications are that their was very little wind entered the cabin with the aft stairs down. I wonder what mechanisms would act on the stairs with such force as to break the fiberglass panels?

The answer to your question is the wind.  The damaged and missing panels would be exposed to high velocity wind as Cooper went down the stairs and the stairs descended well below the aircraft fuselage.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3324 on: October 15, 2020, 07:23:33 PM »
That’s probably true, but was Cooper out on the stairs preparing to jump while the plane was passing by Cinebar? Weren’t the oscillations and the bump much farther south?

ETA:  Cinebar is approximately 17 miles northeast of the turn at Toledo. It is approximately 25 miles north-northeast of the 8:05 mark where it seems the oscillations began and the crew started to suspect he was messing with the stairs. Appears that the plane would have been passing by Cinebar at approximately 7:56. If this is accurate, then Cooper must have fully deployed the stairs sometime between 7:56 and 8:05 for the wind to damage the paneling. Either way, that paneling must have traveled between 15 to 25 miles EAST just to reach the town of Cinebar.

Not 100% sure on the time, so please factcheck me.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 08:32:03 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3325 on: October 15, 2020, 10:45:11 PM »
8:05 was where Cooper made his last communication with the cockpit. the oscillations occurred near the Lewis river 8:10. no record of oscillations at 8:05 or prior.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 10:45:54 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3326 on: October 15, 2020, 10:48:37 PM »
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Interesting info regarding the stairs not incurring much damage during landing. I had suspected that the damage to the staircase panels might have happy during landing - especially since most indications are that their was very little wind entered the cabin with the aft stairs down. I wonder what mechanisms would act on the stairs with such force as to break the fiberglass panels?

The answer to your question is the wind.  The damaged and missing panels would be exposed to high velocity wind as Cooper went down the stairs and the stairs descended well below the aircraft fuselage.


The stairs were partially open. would that be enough to start tearing the panel?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3327 on: October 15, 2020, 10:50:13 PM »
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Interesting info regarding the stairs not incurring much damage during landing. I had suspected that the damage to the staircase panels might have happy during landing - especially since most indications are that their was very little wind entered the cabin with the aft stairs down. I wonder what mechanisms would act on the stairs with such force as to break the fiberglass panels?

The answer to your question is the wind.  The damaged and missing panels would be exposed to high velocity wind as Cooper went down the stairs and the stairs descended well below the aircraft fuselage.


The stairs were partially open. would that be enough to start tearing the panel?

Yes.  Note that the missing panels are at the bottom of the stairs and would be the most exposed to the air stream.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3328 on: October 15, 2020, 10:50:53 PM »
disregard my post...thought you said no..distracted doing something else at the moment.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 10:54:10 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3329 on: October 15, 2020, 11:03:25 PM »
Here is something for you Chaucer...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 11:03:47 PM by Shutter »