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Remember that 305 wasn't beholden to V23. 305 cutting off the dogleg and veering outside of V23 by 2 or 3 miles is meaningless if that's what it takes to skirt downtown Portland. Moreover, V23 heads 175 degrees from Battlefield, therefore 305 would naturally merge right back into center line V23 just south of Portland.

You are making this up as you go along ... Remember that 305 wasn't beholden to V23 ?

Remember that 305 wasn't beholden to V23 but to Ammerman who was "beholden" to V23!  That is the central point of Ammerman's whole testimony and he has been tested on that point by at least five interviewers! Ammerman has told EVERYONE! that the only time 305 could have slipped out of V23 was during the brief period when Cliff was not watching the scene as 305 briefly passed on the west side of V23 passed Portland and his testimony is: "or I would have alert everyone instantly. I was lining the T33 and 305 for a rendezvous, and that was dependent on knowing exactly where 305 was".  So sir it is not like you are saying: Remember that 305 wasn't beholden to V23. Those are your words - not Ammerman's. Ammerman never said what you are trying to inform us he said! Ammerman has never said what you are saying he said. 

You are just looking for an 'out' you can plop some cobbled west path in. Whether it fits with Ammerman's testimony or not. Its as simple as that.

Let me explain a few things to GEORGER who is apparently intellectually challenged and "confused" as he rightfully admitted in previous post:

1) Ammerman stated that 305 passed Portland west of the 405 but east of Beaverton as best he can recall.

2) Ammerman stated that 305 maintained a consistent heading of 160 (Between the Kelso area and south of Portland) as best he can recall.

3) Ammerman stated that 305 could have been OUTSIDE of V23 west of PDX.

4) Ammerman stated that he was there to observe 305 and coordinate the F-106s and T-33.

5) Ammerman stated that he handed communication with 305 off to the controller who handled the airspace from 9K feet and lower as the jet was near Kelso. Therefore, he could not and did not communicate directly with 305.

6) Ammerman stated he was never interviewed by the FBI.

7) Ammerman stated that he was unaware of the FBI Flight Path specifics.

Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX.

9) Ammerman stated that he was told by a woman he works with, who apparently knew Capt. Scott in some capacity, that she was told that Scott intentionally flew the jet west of Portland to avoid the primary cluster of population because of the prospect of a bomb being onboard.

10) Ammerman stated that 305 embarked upon a heading of 160 near Kelso to cut out the "dogleg" portion of V23.

Now take that home and smoke it. Plot it out. See what you come up with. Please report back to us all immediately upon discovering the mass EU/R99 conspiracy.

all according to you.

We dont have Cliff here to depose. Wish we did! 

Some neutral party go re-interview Cliff again. I am willing to bet Cliff will recant much of what EU is claiming Cliff said. If EU hasn't scared off Ammerman.

I can tell the world one thing for God Damned Certain! Cliff does not like 'suspect peddlers' putting him in the middle of anything!  And that is exactly what Mr, Ulis is doing. My concern - and its real - is that Ulis may scare Cliff away and shut him down. I pray that hasn't happened.  THAT IS A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN.

For example (lets be specific from EU above:  " 3) Ammerman stated that 305 could have been OUTSIDE of V23 west of PDX."

Cliff never told me anything of the kind. I asked him for a clarification of this multiple times during 3 interviews over the phone in addition to email back and forth.  (a) Cliff said he had no evidence whatever that 305 ever was outside V23. (b) Cliff said IF 305 was outside V23 during its passage west of PDX it would have been so briefly that he never saw it and he was away from his screen for mere seconds at most. (c) Cliff said specifically that he was talking to the T33 for a rendezvous with 305, NORTH OF THE COLUMBIA, and in order to do that he noted 305's position before he stood up to fiddle with his radio, he gave the T33 instructions based on his last sighting of 305 on his screen, and when he looked back nothing had changed to alter the instructions he had given the T33! Cliff told me that as far as he was concerned 305 NEVER left the center line of V23 or if it did it was STILL inside the four mile western side of V23 ........ that is what Cliff told me. Cliff said specifically as far as he was concern 305 NEVER LEFT the V23 corridor.

Specifically, Cliff said that had he thought for any reason 305 was outside the west boundary of V23 he would have 'given an alert' INSTANTLY to 305' (to get back inside V23!) because his lining up of the T33 pilot with 305 relied on 305 being within the V23 corridor Cliff said HE WAS USING!  Everything was dependent on keeping 305 within V23.

So put that in your daily byte!

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Here's EU map, for whatever thats worth. I had to trim it to under 200k and try to focus it which I couldnt do -

I did not create this map. I can barely read the map.

I never said you did - go back and read what I said! THIS IS ONE MORE REASON NOT TO TAKE ANYTHING EU SAYS AS AN ACCURATE RECORD OF ANYTHING.

SOMEBODY RE-INTERVIEW AMMERMAN! 

I did not say that you said I did. How about you go back to read what I wrote. What I said was "I did not create this map."

You see GEORGER, you will always lose when debating me.

I think Andrade would be the perfect person to converse with Ammerman?

Are we to assume Ammerman was R5 and not R2?

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Are we to assume Ammerman was R5 and not R2?

That may be true now... but turns out he wasnt R2...

R2 handed off at around Toledo and R5 took over till past Portland. it's possible R2 was Ammerman since he watched over the fighters. not sure why he would go outside his sector though..

Okay, we have heard from both sides....move on.

Okay, we have heard from both sides....move on.

This isnt personal with me - but it is with EU. EU keeps trying to manage and direct all players like he was managing some play on a stage! The Cooper case isn't some play script .... anyone can manage like a play! All of EU's social commentary and psycho babel is just that; has nothing to do with the facts of this case, or even with me! It could be anybody who disagrees with EU's claims. EU just cant have his way .......... that is what he is upset about.

EU is trying to force a round peg intro a square hole, any way he can. His only shred of hope is this "might of been" he claims Cliff set on the table like some gigantic opening ...... FOR ANYTHING! That is not what Cliff Ammerman said oir is saying or implying - THAT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! In fact Cliff is saying just the opposite!

How many times does Ammerman have to say 305 never left V23 .... before people start believing it! ?

According to Ammerman the plane did in fact turn at KTDO, correct? this doesn't match a Malay path, correct? then we are locked with a 23 DME from Portland VORTEC, correct?

If we go by any deviation from Kelso to Canby it puts the plane east of Ridgefield and jumping into populated area's, correct?

Then we have radar reports from Portland that don't seem to be valid but the radar reports from the Toledo area down to the Lewis river appear to be crystal clear now? that's what Ammerman would of seen, correct?

Personally, I need to see good reason for radar reports to be false. along with rechecking the FDR and downplaying that as well. I fail to see where this would be an issue since it's obvious the pilots had input into this as well. we have to discount every piece of proof to fly west IMHO.

Add to that Cliff's statement he has repeated 10,000 times: 'Had I thought or seen 305 outside of V23, during the T33-305 lineup, I would have issued an immediate alert to 305, to get back inside V23. The whole work plan given to T33 was based on the premise of 305 being "inside of V23"! ' 

"I would have issued an alert IMMEDIATELY had I seen 305 outside of V23". 

This isn't some debate to be won! This is historical fact and science.