Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 757194 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1335 on: January 16, 2018, 11:24:37 PM »
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...Meyer, and maybe Bruce, have ventured a few feet into the river to cool off, so maybe they can provide some input on this.



I have swum at T-Bar in August when it was 105 degrees on a local bank reader board. The water felt delicious.

I have also swum in the Columbia in August, east of the Dalles, and it was surprisingly cold. Ice melt? From where? Snow melt? Maybe, but that section of the Columbia was in the western edge of the high desert and the sun was strong.

What struck me most about both swims was the rapid current. The river took me downstream in a jiffy.

As for temps at depth, there is such a thing as a thermo-cline, the point in a water column where there is a distinct pressure and temperature differential, almost like a barrier. The water doesn't mix too easily across the thermo-cline. In lake water there are usually two thermo-clines that a swimmer can access. The first one is at 16 feet, and the next one around 40-feet or so. Based on my personal summer-time experience, I would say there is a 10-15 degree drop across the thermo-cline. Hence, water that is 75 degrees on the surface would be 60 degrees at 16 feet, and 45-50-ish at 40-feet.

Lots on the net about salmon being in danger in the Lower Columbia due to mean increase in annual temps?

Have you got even a guess about what the temp would be at the bottom where dredging material was removed? 

Also need typical beach sand soil temps by season, down to 4 ft, anywhere near TBar. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:37:09 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1336 on: January 16, 2018, 11:25:34 PM »
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Find someone who is monitoring invasive species; zebra and quagga mussels begin reproducing at 54 degrees so most AIS specialists monitor water temp to understand where and when to look when doing assessments and surveys. They might have the best info.

will do - Thanks! Will start looking at Portland ?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1337 on: January 17, 2018, 01:51:04 AM »
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 ....Have you got even a guess about what the temp would be at the bottom where dredging material was removed? 


My guess is 45 degrees year-round at a depth of at least 40-feet. I suspect that the depth of the Columbia is variable, and often deeper that 40-feet.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 01:53:32 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1338 on: January 17, 2018, 03:13:07 AM »
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 ....Have you got even a guess about what the temp would be at the bottom where dredging material was removed? 


My guess is 45 degrees year-round at a depth of at least 40-feet. I suspect that the depth of the Columbia is variable, and often deeper that 40-feet.

ok tnx
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1339 on: February 26, 2018, 09:18:24 PM »
Okay, this is the thread that boggles me the most. I know a lot of maps have been made speculating on the landing zone. I hope I ask this clearly enough- is there a map of the region that shows ALL the possible areas where the DZ could have been if you presume the pressure bump at 8:13 was Cooper diving - ex. Plane was going at X speed for this long and Y speed for that long, so the RANGE of DZ's is [area]? Do we at least have some idea where he wasn't?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1340 on: February 26, 2018, 09:22:12 PM »
Most, if not all the maps where made shortly after the hijacking...the confusion with the pressure bump came many years later...the exact location can not be found due to the lack of information in it's totality..
 
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Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1341 on: February 26, 2018, 09:55:08 PM »
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Most, if not all the maps where made shortly after the hijacking...the confusion with the pressure bump came many years later...the exact location can not be found due to the lack of information in it's totality..

And there are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that remove ALL meaningful information that would help locate the airliner at 8:13 PM.  So there are a lot of guesses as to where he jumped.
 
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Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1342 on: February 26, 2018, 10:40:59 PM »
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Most, if not all the maps where made shortly after the hijacking...the confusion with the pressure bump came many years later...the exact location can not be found due to the lack of information in it's totality..

And there are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that remove ALL meaningful information that would help locate the airliner at 8:13 PM.  So there are a lot of guesses as to where he jumped.
Dare I ask if any agency anywhere has possession of the unredacted versions?
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1343 on: February 26, 2018, 11:51:01 PM »
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Most, if not all the maps where made shortly after the hijacking...the confusion with the pressure bump came many years later...the exact location can not be found due to the lack of information in it's totality..

And there are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that remove ALL meaningful information that would help locate the airliner at 8:13 PM.  So there are a lot of guesses as to where he jumped.
Dare I ask if any agency anywhere has possession of the unredacted versions?

Presumably, yes.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1344 on: February 27, 2018, 03:27:34 AM »
Maybe even GG.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1345 on: February 27, 2018, 11:51:26 AM »
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Most, if not all the maps where made shortly after the hijacking...the confusion with the pressure bump came many years later...the exact location can not be found due to the lack of information in it's totality..

And there are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that remove ALL meaningful information that would help locate the airliner at 8:13 PM.  So there are a lot of guesses as to where he jumped.
Dare I ask if any agency anywhere has possession of the unredacted versions?

Presumably, yes.

The 19 redactions in the radio transcript for the flight from Seattle to the point in Northern California where the airliner was handed off to the Oakland ATC, appears to be a CYA operation by the FBI and FAA.  There are no redactions in any of the other radio transcripts.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1346 on: February 27, 2018, 01:04:35 PM »
Could there be an innocent non CYA explanation for the radio redactions? If it is a cover up what might it be concealing? Speculation welcomed.

377

 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1347 on: February 27, 2018, 02:09:54 PM »
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Could there be an innocent non CYA explanation for the radio redactions? If it is a cover up what might it be concealing? Speculation welcomed.

377

This is the section where Cooper bailed. Apparently everyone lost their marbles and the Maldum Fornax collapsed!  :rofl:  All starting around 8:10 and ending when 305 was in the hands of a different controller south of Portland. 

Plus we dont have anything from the company communications ... or the military side.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 02:12:40 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1348 on: February 27, 2018, 03:11:06 PM »
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Could there be an innocent non CYA explanation for the radio redactions? If it is a cover up what might it be concealing? Speculation welcomed.

377

This is the section where Cooper bailed. Apparently everyone lost their marbles and the Maldum Fornax collapsed!  :rofl:  All starting around 8:10 and ending when 305 was in the hands of a different controller south of Portland. 

Plus we dont have anything from the company communications ... or the military side.

NWA did apparently have its own channel at SEATAC for direct communications with its aircraft while they were on the ground there.  There is a reference in the SEATAC transcripts to the crew being on the "company channel" and missing a message from the tower.  The company channel would have been used for such things as coordinating the service of the aircraft during a turn around, passing flight plan information, passenger information, enroute weather, etc., etc..

 While in flight, the direct communications with various NWA facilities would be handled through the ARINC teletype system and the ARINC telephone patch that was specifically set up during the hijacking.  Only a very limited amount of the ARINC teletype information was released for the Seattle area.  Fred Poynter, of the Washington State History Museum, had access to the teletype printouts of some of the ARINC communications several years ago.  He and his staff analyzed what they had and concluded that the printouts had also been redacted.

The Oakland ATC told the airliner at one point to contact the ARINC station in Sacramento on a specific frequency while it was under their control.  Presumably, there could have been a phone patch transcript involved in this as well as the teletype printouts.  But they have never surfaced.   
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1349 on: February 27, 2018, 05:14:04 PM »
"While in flight, the direct communications with various NWA facilities would be handled through the ARINC teletype system..."

I assume you mean ground to ground through TTY. NWA 727s did not have radio teletype systems.

377