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Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787690 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8100 on: August 26, 2022, 10:22:35 PM »
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You can read FBI 64, p. 306 if you still don't believe these are from the 302s. In that document, which I posted and you clearly didn't read, it said, "Lost communications on NWA communications frequency (131.9)."

There's no reason to discuss redactions because everything here is quite clearly represented in the 302s or ARINC TTY.

The original source of the documents is the ARINC teletype transcripts.  And again, there is nothing in those transcripts to indicate when the airliner was assigned 131.9 or whose frequency it was in the first place.

Can you explain how 131.9 got involved in the hijacking?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8101 on: August 26, 2022, 10:30:27 PM »
It’s literally there in the source document I provided: FBI 64, p. 306.

It’s from Paul Soderlind’s notes provided to the FBI. You do know who Paul Soderlind is, right?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8102 on: August 27, 2022, 04:08:20 AM »
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It’s literally there in the source document I provided: FBI 64, p. 306.

It’s from Paul Soderlind’s notes provided to the FBI. You do know who Paul Soderlind is, right?

As a matter of fact, I am aware of Paul Soderlind.  But the original source is still the ARINC teletype transcripts. 
 

Offline Olemisscub

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8103 on: August 27, 2022, 11:38:03 AM »
Found this last night. We don't need a Belgian graphic novel. We've got an AMERICAN pulp novella hero from 1937 named Dan Cooper. Also, on the page right before the novella begins is some wild adventure involving a parachute rescue. Please give credit. Thank you!



came from this:



 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8104 on: August 27, 2022, 01:19:07 PM »
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It’s literally there in the source document I provided: FBI 64, p. 306.

It’s from Paul Soderlind’s notes provided to the FBI. You do know who Paul Soderlind is, right?

As a matter of fact, I am aware of Paul Soderlind.  But the original source is still the ARINC teletype transcripts.
No, the source is Paul Soderlind's notes while he was on the phone patch with the crew which he provided to the FBI.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8105 on: August 30, 2022, 11:43:33 AM »
Pretty cool discovery, Cubby. Thanks.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8106 on: October 30, 2022, 03:05:03 AM »
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Attached are images from charts that I requested from the National Archives. They are from the Enroute High Altitude charts dated October 14th, 1971. As Dr. Edwards states in the blog post above, it is now conclusive that when the R2 handed off 305 at 7:59pm, he did so to the wrong radar operator. He handed 305 off to the high altitude R16 sector rather than the R4 sector manned by Cliff Ammerman. Eventually, at 8:13 pm, the crew of Flight 305 began communicating with Ammerman as the R5 operator. As a result, if Bill Rataczak shouted "There he goes! Mark it on your shrimp boats!" between 7:59 and 8:13, he was likely speaking into dead air.

Any evidence pertaining to the jump is only contained within the transcript of the comms between 305 and Flight Operations. Those comms are confirmed to exist by Larry Carr, but so far have been unreleased by the FBI.

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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8107 on: October 30, 2022, 11:27:35 AM »
With the above information in mind, we can now updated our timeline:

Timeline of Flight 305 Comms during Seattle to Reno Leg (Revised)

Air Traffic Control
Seattle Ground on frequency 121.7 mhz until take off at approximately 1936 PST
Seattle Tower on 119.9 mhz and Seattle Departure on 120.1 mhz? if so, from ~1936 to 1937:11 PST (but there is no transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R2 (name unknown) on 128.3 from 1937:11 to 1959:15 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position 16 on 133.9 mhz from 1959:15 to 20:13:14 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R5 (Cliff Ammerman) on 120.9 mhz from 20:13:14 to 20:33:46 (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R6 (name unknown) on 125.8 mhz from 2033:46 to 2103:36 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R10 (name unknown) on 125.3 mhz from 2103:36 to 2145:29 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Oakland ARTCC on various frequencies from 2144 to 2235 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Reno Approach and Tower on various frequencies from 2232 to 2332 PST (as per WSHS transcript)

Northwest Airlines
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on patched ARINC frequency 131.8 mhz from ~1936 PST (or earlier) to 2022 +/-3 PST
(Approximately 2020 PST communications lost with 305 on ARINC frequency 131.8, then re-established at frequency 131.9 as per Soderlind’s notes)
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on ARINC frequency frequency 131.9 mhz (ARINC frequency, patched) from 2022 +/-3 PST until shutdown at Reno
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8108 on: October 30, 2022, 03:04:48 PM »
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Attached are images from charts that I requested from the National Archives. They are from the Enroute High Altitude charts dated October 14th, 1971. As Dr. Edwards states in the blog post above, it is now conclusive that when the R2 handed off 305 at 7:59pm, he did so to the wrong radar operator. He handed 305 off to the high altitude R16 sector rather than the R4 sector manned by Cliff Ammerman. Eventually, at 8:13 pm, the crew of Flight 305 began communicating with Ammerman as the R5 operator. As a result, if Bill Rataczak shouted "There he goes! Mark it on your shrimp boats!" between 7:59 and 8:13, he was likely speaking into dead air.

Any evidence pertaining to the jump is only contained within the transcript of the comms between 305 and Flight Operations. Those comms are confirmed to exist by Larry Carr, but so far have been unreleased by the FBI.


Chaucer, the NWA 305 flight crew is NOT going to be talking to dead air for 14 minutes.  Who they were talking to during that period of time has been redacted from the Seattle ATC transcripts per Larry Carr's statement that you quote above.

This redaction is just one of 19 redactions in the Seattle transcripts.  What was going on in this and the other 18 redactions?  That is something that the FBI, FAA, and/or NWA does not want released.  I got the run around from the FBI when attempting to obtain the unredacted Seattle transcripts even with the assistance of my Congressman and senior executives in the FBI.

Carr's acknowledgment that unredacted copies of the Seattle transcripts exist is the first admission of that from FBI sources.  And I am sure that some current posters on this site, as well as previous posters here, are going to try to dismiss this as nonsense due to their own agendas.

Chaucer, some months ago you told me that you were going to contact Rataczak.  How did that go?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8109 on: October 30, 2022, 04:56:09 PM »
Quote
That is something that the FBI, FAA, and/or NWA does not want released.

This would have to be the case right out of the gate, why, because Paul S. would see locations to gather information for the possible dropzone. if they were not redacted, how was he so wrong when locations were given or obvious things said that have been removed, plus they were listening?

Why would the FBI hold this back making them spend hundreds of thousands of dollars looking in the wrong location. In cases like this they rely on experts telling them important facts surrounding the crime. they didn't rely on NWO to catch Cooper, not there job.

The FAA is neutral and probably handed over the transcripts outside of what NWO already had and sent to the FBI?

Why would NWO cover up the location they spent a lot of time on. no other hijackings had such conspiracy theories attached to them.

Now, I can see them removing things they think would be damaging but how did Paul miss this info we don't see, it doesn't fly?

The FBI has a decades old rule, much like other law enforcement by not releasing info on an open case, even semi-open. it is what it is.

Lots of departments would be part of this conspiracy, the FBI, NWO, FAA, Portland, Reno, The flight crew etc.

In a nutshell, none of the above wanted the case solved and all paid way more than the $200,000 to cover it up?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8110 on: October 30, 2022, 06:58:16 PM »
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Quote
That is something that the FBI, FAA, and/or NWA does not want released.

This would have to be the case right out of the gate, why, because Paul S. would see locations to gather information for the possible dropzone. if they were not redacted, how was he so wrong when locations were given or obvious things said that have been removed, plus they were listening?

Why would the FBI hold this back making them spend hundreds of thousands of dollars looking in the wrong location. In cases like this they rely on experts telling them important facts surrounding the crime. they didn't rely on NWO to catch Cooper, not there job.

The FAA is neutral and probably handed over the transcripts outside of what NWO already had and sent to the FBI?

Why would NWO cover up the location they spent a lot of time on. no other hijackings had such conspiracy theories attached to them.

Now, I can see them removing things they think would be damaging but how did Paul miss this info we don't see, it doesn't fly?

The FBI has a decades old rule, much like other law enforcement by not releasing info on an open case, even semi-open. it is what it is.

Lots of departments would be part of this conspiracy, the FBI, NWO, FAA, Portland, Reno, The flight crew etc.

In a nutshell, none of the above wanted the case solved and all paid way more than the $200,000 to cover it up?

One can only speculate on the reasons the unredacted Seattle ATC transcripts have not been released.  But those transcripts exist and are in the public domain.  They should look similiar to the Oakland transcripts.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8111 on: October 30, 2022, 08:43:57 PM »
Robert,
You are correct.  The other explanation is that 305 WAS communicating with R16 from 7:59 to 8:13 but that those comms were never transcribed because the person transcribing was only provided with the low altitude comms fully unaware of the error R2 made in passing 305 off to R16. Thus, 305 was in comms with high altitude R16, but those comms were never transcribed.

However, considering that 133.9 mHz was out of Redmond, OR which is on the other side of the Cascades, it is unlikely that 305 would be able to raise them.

Also, I am unaware of Larry Carr's statement about redactions in the ATC transcripts. What he has said to me is that there exists transcriptions of comms between Flight Ops in Minneapolis and Flight 305, and that he has read them. He expects them to be released soon.

Could you please provide the source of your claim that Larry Carr said anything about redactions?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8112 on: October 31, 2022, 01:11:32 AM »
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Robert,
You are correct.  The other explanation is that 305 WAS communicating with R16 from 7:59 to 8:13 but that those comms were never transcribed because the person transcribing was only provided with the low altitude comms fully unaware of the error R2 made in passing 305 off to R16. Thus, 305 was in comms with high altitude R16, but those comms were never transcribed.

However, considering that 133.9 mHz was out of Redmond, OR which is on the other side of the Cascades, it is unlikely that 305 would be able to raise them.

Also, I am unaware of Larry Carr's statement about redactions in the ATC transcripts. What he has said to me is that there exists transcriptions of comms between Flight Ops in Minneapolis and Flight 305, and that he has read them. He expects them to be released soon.

Could you please provide the source of your claim that Larry Carr said anything about redactions?

Chaucer, if Air Traffic Controller (not radar controller) R16 never heard from NWA 305 then they could not be communicating.  If after trying to contact someone on 133.9 several times and getting no response, the airliner would revert to the previous controller and explain the situation.  And I am sure the previous controller would get the matter cleared up in less than 60 seconds and provide the correct frequency for the next controller.  These communications should be in the Seattle ATC transcripts. 

Gerald H. Osterkamp, the Chief of the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center, certified that his original communication transcripts were between NWA 305 and controllers R2, R5, R6, and R10 and included everything that was recorded relevant to the hijacking.  Since all of the air traffic communications are recorded, it is obvious that some have been redacted.  And the number of redactions in the Seattle transcripts totals 19.

You are now saying that Larry Carr was only referring to the communications over the ARINC frequency, which is not an air traffic control frequency.  The redactions that Carr was apparently referring to would be the missing transcripts in the ARINC teletype transcripts that the WSHM detected in their examination of the roll of ARINC teletype transcripts from the George Harrison family that they were able to examine.

The Larry Carr comments have been cited in your own previous posts as I noted in earlier posts.

For your information, the FBI listed the FAA as one of the organizations that did not want to release any further information on the Seattle ATC transcripts as a result of my FOIAs.  And a FOIA direct to the FAA was also unproductive.

The end result remains that there are 19 unexplained redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 01:18:23 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8113 on: October 31, 2022, 08:46:05 PM »
Robert,
What you are describing is standard operating procedure in regular circumstances.

The crew of 305 was dealing with an active hijacking - one in which the hijacker said that radio transmission might detonate the bomb. They were likely distracted in the cockpit or unwilling to continually operate the radio. I've spoken with several air traffic controllers about this very situation, and they have told me that there have been quite a few cases of an aircraft that hasn't been in communications long enough for a fighter jet to be scrambled. It happens once every few years. They even have a name for it: NORDO or NO RaDiO.

Either way, the evidence is unmistakable that R2 passed 305 on to a high altitude frequency based in Redmond, OR. Cliff Ammerman's own statements confirm this. Whether they could not reach Redmond due to the Cascades or the transcriber listened to the wrong recordings, we don't know.

Lastly, Larry Carr never said anything to me about redactions at all - not in the ATC transcripts and not in the ARINC TTY, and I never ever said that he had.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8114 on: October 31, 2022, 11:53:41 PM »
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Any evidence pertaining to the jump is only contained within the transcript of the comms between 305 and Flight Operations. Those comms are confirmed to exist by Larry Carr, but so far have been unreleased by the FBI.


Chaucer, the above quote is from your post #8106 above.

As I have previously explained, Larry Carr is talking about the ARINC teletype transcripts and NOT the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

The "unreleased comms" Carr mentioned have to include the "missing" teletype transcripts that the WSHM people identified during their study of the George Harrison papers which included a roll of ARINC teletype transcripts related to the hijacking.