Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.9%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.4%)
50% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (20.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (37.9%)

Total Members Voted: 53

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 723894 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7605 on: November 18, 2021, 05:54:03 PM »
I want to be the first to say this.

The main thing that kept the Cooper thing alive, is the lack of information, or inconsistent information flow, from the FBI.

With each month, as more FBI files are released, the whole thing becomes more boring.
It just becomes a case, with "triumph of the nerds" analyzing paper, because all the interesting people to talk to are dying off.

At a certain point, the "facts" aren't going to be interesting anymore. Just dry paper...well actually dried-up pdf files.

I mean, I can't believe people want to say that the FBI has a report of Cooper having cigarette stains on his hands. I think that was an erroneous FBI report late in the game, by someone wanting to compare to a suspect with cigarette stains.

But it will be people arguing stuff like that about inconsistent FBI files in the future..
And that makes it less interesting. i.e. the information kills the beast.

"murder of the impossible"
Some things are no longer interesting, when you know too much.

I'm impressed that Bruce seized on the interesting angle early: i.e. the FBI behavior was as interesting as Cooper's
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 05:56:40 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7606 on: November 18, 2021, 09:58:05 PM »
Thanks, Snow.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7607 on: November 19, 2021, 01:58:58 PM »
I sent photographs of Hayden's parachute that is in the WSHM to the folks that run theriggerdepot.com. They specialize in creating reproductions of parachuting and aviation equipment for movies and TV, etc. They have a great write-up on the "B-8" chute. This is what he said after I asked him to identify exactly the type of chute displayed at the WSHM:

"Yes, the chute looks to be assembled for civilian use. It looks like a Navy NB-6 series harness, with a civilian Pioneer pack tray. This general style of pack started its life as a civilian design, was adopted by the military, and both civilian and military versions were produced for decades after the war. The 26' conical canopy was strictly a postwar design. It bears a resemblance to a wartime B-8, but is not."
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7608 on: November 19, 2021, 03:36:25 PM »
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I sent photographs of Hayden's parachute that is in the WSHM to the folks that run theriggerdepot.com. They specialize in creating reproductions of parachuting and aviation equipment for movies and TV, etc. They have a great write-up on the "B-8" chute. This is what he said after I asked him to identify exactly the type of chute displayed at the WSHM:

"Yes, the chute looks to be assembled for civilian use. It looks like a Navy NB-6 series harness, with a civilian Pioneer pack tray. This general style of pack started its life as a civilian design, was adopted by the military, and both civilian and military versions were produced for decades after the war. The 26' conical canopy was strictly a postwar design. It bears a resemblance to a wartime B-8, but is not."

Chaucer, send these people a copy of the picture of Hayden wearing the chute and that fully pictures the front of the harness.  Bruce Smith has posted those pictures.  Also, there is a picture of the front and back of an NB-6 parachute with the harness and container fully visible on Sluggo's site and I think those pictures are also posted here on Shutter's site.

I have both an NB-6 harness and container (the NB-6 information is plainly stenciled on them) and neither the Hayden harness or container is an NB-6.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7609 on: November 19, 2021, 03:51:26 PM »
This is the follow up from them:

“The harness itself could be from an NB-8 assembly, but a proper NB-8 would have a 28' flat circular canopy and nylon pack tray. If the 26 conical canopy is original to the harness, then more likely an NB-6. Without knowing more it's hard to tell.”

Basically, it depends on the canopy. Of the canopy is 26”, then it’s an NB-6. If the canopy is 28”, then it’s an NB-8.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 03:53:59 PM by Chaucer »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7610 on: November 19, 2021, 04:39:42 PM »
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This is the follow up from them:

“The harness itself could be from an NB-8 assembly, but a proper NB-8 would have a 28' flat circular canopy and nylon pack tray. If the 26 conical canopy is original to the harness, then more likely an NB-6. Without knowing more it's hard to tell.”

Basically, it depends on the canopy. Of the canopy is 26”, then it’s an NB-6. If the canopy is 28”, then it’s an NB-8.

377 & Dudeman, would you care to comment on the above exchange?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7611 on: November 19, 2021, 05:39:40 PM »
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This is the follow up from them:

“The harness itself could be from an NB-8 assembly, but a proper NB-8 would have a 28' flat circular canopy and nylon pack tray. If the 26 conical canopy is original to the harness, then more likely an NB-6. Without knowing more it's hard to tell.”

Basically, it depends on the canopy. Of the canopy is 26”, then it’s an NB-6. If the canopy is 28”, then it’s an NB-8.

377 & Dudeman, would you care to comment on the above exchange?

I though Cossey claimed he "overstuffed" a 28' canopy into a NB-6 ..."just because he could". There was always questions about whether he sewed any kind of extension to accomplish this. He was pretty freewheeling with other mods?

sounds like grounds for uh, murder, if so.

from Bruce's article. All this Cossey stuff about "hard pull", modified right-hand outboard pull (I think this is the mod Cossey has described. dudeman17: were you familar with this kind of mod? Kind of gives the superman pull, rather than cross-chest? My memory of these details may be incorrect)...and the overstuffed 28' canopy into a NB-6. Was it all true? Did Cossey really have such a rig? If so, where did it go? If Cossey had it later..he knew he was spewing BS for a long time?

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 When I asked for a clarification on the story that he had stuffed a 28-foot canopy into an NB-6 rather than the larger NB-8 sack, he told me the stuffing story was “pretty much accurate.”  He later said that the tightly-packed rig was another reason why this chute – that Cooper allegedly used – was a hard pull.

 Along those lines, Cossey has never explained why he modified a pilot’s emergency rig to make it more difficult to use.  Cossey had told me and many others that he had re-located the rip cord on the chute and had tucked the handle into a pouch under the right arm-pit, thus making the chute a “double-pull.”  This meant that Cooper would need two tugs on the rip cord to successfully deploy the rig – one out of the pouch and a second up and away to free the canopy.
 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 06:01:46 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7612 on: November 19, 2021, 05:51:50 PM »
The June 12, 2008 post from Ckret at DZ.com

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June 12, 2008
Sluggo,

The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports. I asked Cossey why he packed a 28 foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, "it was my chute, I did it because I can." I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour.

...........

And the Carr post claiming that Cossey described a weird pull

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June 13, 2008
Question about the NB6, now that we have an NB6 expert here. When I talked with Cossey he explained how he configured the chute but did so as if I knew what he was talking about. (you ever talk to someone with so much expertise they don't have the time or desire to take it down a notch)

He talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed.

Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull?

------------------

And just a reminder about how off-base Carr was about where the chutes came from. He suggests here that Cossey might have been involved in the instruction page give to Cooper, which makes no sense.

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June 14, 2008
I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey.

I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.

Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.[\font]
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 06:00:07 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7613 on: November 19, 2021, 07:17:36 PM »
More:

"He may indeed have jumped with a 28' canopy, but it would have been a flat circular canopy and not a conical. 28' conical canopies did not exist in 1971."

The packing card for the chute returned to Hayden clearly states "26' conical". If the chutes were identical as Hayden states, then the canopy in the missing chute must also be a 26' conical.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7614 on: November 19, 2021, 07:36:19 PM »
I'm not familiar with the intricate details and differences of those rigs. I think 377 is more so. But in general, any compatibility issues (canopy to container) or modifications would depend on what the manufacturer allows, and what level of rating the rigger has. There is a senior and a master reape... er, rigger's rating.

I don't remember where I read this, but I think the nature of that ripcord modification that Cossey made to his rig...  I think the idea was that he wore a bailout rig for putting out static-line students (which I have confirmed was a common practice in those days for an instructor who was not planning to jump himself - gutter gear/front mount reserve would be too bulky/cumbersome while doing that). I think he moved the handle to make it less accessible to potentially panicked students who might be trying to grab at things on their way out the door. He might have moved the handle from inboard to outboard, tightened the ripcord handle pocket and maybe re-routed the ripcord housing. An over-the-shoulder routing would want more of a downward pull, where re-routing it under the arm (and probably changing the direction) sounds more like the upward pull he described. And a tighter pack (bigger canopy without modifying the container) would make for a bit harder pull. So the 'dual pull' thing sounds like get the handle out of the pocket, then a stiff upward pull. There are standards for the minimum and maximum allowable pull force required. Anything falling within these standards should be easy enough to pull without needing to overly define it. My guess is that Cossey was over-selling the difficulty, as he was wont to do. But all this again begs the question of which rigs Cooper was given. If he was given both of Hayden's rigs, then none of this likely applies.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7615 on: November 19, 2021, 07:43:24 PM »
As a layperson, the "stuffing" of a 28' and the modification of a ripcord to make it more difficult to pull sounds scary and reckless. Doesn't seem that Cossey was a "by the book" kind of guy.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7616 on: November 19, 2021, 08:26:37 PM »
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I sent photographs of Hayden's parachute that is in the WSHM to the folks that run theriggerdepot.com. They specialize in creating reproductions of parachuting and aviation equipment for movies and TV, etc. They have a great write-up on the "B-8" chute. This is what he said after I asked him to identify exactly the type of chute displayed at the WSHM:

"Yes, the chute looks to be assembled for civilian use. It looks like a Navy NB-6 series harness, with a civilian Pioneer pack tray. This general style of pack started its life as a civilian design, was adopted by the military, and both civilian and military versions were produced for decades after the war. The 26' conical canopy was strictly a postwar design. It bears a resemblance to a wartime B-8, but is not."

good job. That's the first ID I've heard of that sounds reasonable. and that it's a NB-6 harness, but a civilian container.
Be interesting to hear dudeman's thoughts on this.
So maybe Cossey's random thoughts were somehow right, but somehow very wrong.

So weird that as far as Hayden remembered, he had two identical rigs. Cossey, if parts of his testimony are accurate, seems to differ?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7617 on: November 19, 2021, 08:28:17 PM »
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More:

"He may indeed have jumped with a 28' canopy, but it would have been a flat circular canopy and not a conical. 28' conical canopies did not exist in 1971."

The packing card for the chute returned to Hayden clearly states "26' conical". If the chutes were identical as Hayden states, then the canopy in the missing chute must also be a 26' conical.

Yeah, it seems at this point, to err on the side of assuming all of Cossey's testimoney was messed up.
The question is: Why? Was Cossey just very confused? Did he ever realize what he said didn't make sense?

Geez, if he was really lying on purpose, was he part of the game? Unlikely, but it all doesn't make sense.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7618 on: November 19, 2021, 08:45:38 PM »
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As a layperson, the "stuffing" of a 28' and the modification of a ripcord to make it more difficult to pull sounds scary and reckless. Doesn't seem that Cossey was a "by the book" kind of guy.

Well, not so fast on that one. Again, the purpose of that mod would not simply be to make it more difficult to use. It would be to prevent a student from inadvertently deploying Cossey's rig. And that is a very real concern. If his chute were to be deployed in the plane, get out the door and go over the tail, that could kill everybody in the plane and possibly people on the ground where the plane crashes. So that isn't reckless, it's prudent. It should still be within regs, but for his own use Cossey's gonna do what he's gonna do. However, he shouldn't sell or give that rig to anyone else without re-configuring it.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7619 on: November 20, 2021, 12:01:59 AM »
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I sent photographs of Hayden's parachute that is in the WSHM to the folks that run theriggerdepot.com. They specialize in creating reproductions of parachuting and aviation equipment for movies and TV, etc. They have a great write-up on the "B-8" chute. This is what he said after I asked him to identify exactly the type of chute displayed at the WSHM:

"Yes, the chute looks to be assembled for civilian use. It looks like a Navy NB-6 series harness, with a civilian Pioneer pack tray. This general style of pack started its life as a civilian design, was adopted by the military, and both civilian and military versions were produced for decades after the war. The 26' conical canopy was strictly a postwar design. It bears a resemblance to a wartime B-8, but is not."

good job. That's the first ID I've heard of that sounds reasonable. and that it's a NB-6 harness, but a civilian container.
Be interesting to hear dudeman's thoughts on this.
So maybe Cossey's random thoughts were somehow right, but somehow very wrong.

So weird that as far as Hayden remembered, he had two identical rigs. Cossey, if parts of his testimony are accurate, seems to differ?

The container of the Hayden parachute that is now at the WSHM is too thick to have 26-foot conical canopy in it.  It has to be a 28-foot canopy.  In the 1960/1970 era, the main selling point of the 26-foot conical canopy was that it could be packed into a very thin container for use as an emergency parachute in aircraft with cramped cockpits.

I think 377 posted that he had come down on a reserve 26-foot conical canopy a couple of times.  If this was with a round backpack, then he probably packed the conical canopy in a container that usually contained a 24-foot round twill canopy.