Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588893 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7455 on: October 13, 2021, 04:27:25 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 04:30:55 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7456 on: October 13, 2021, 07:17:00 PM »
with respect to my question of whether Robert T. Tosaw tried to act as attorney for the ingrams..

fbi file 46 page 364, 365, 366, 371 (attached)

Note the typist note is "RTT:bh" on page 364 and isn't redacted. Is this "Robert T. Tosaw" ? If so, was he also serving as attorney in the final 1986 settlement??

The letter says:

"I am the attorney for <long redaction>. The <redacted> was part of the <redacted> by the Northwest Airlines in the D.B. Cooper hijacking case.

<redacted> I am writing to Northwest Airlines and their insurance carrier, Royal Global Insurance  [ed. interesting he doesn't use the Global Indemnity name], asking if they will consent <redacted>. If they consent, would your bureau <redacted> it would not be needed to prove anything, would it? If so we could wait until you no longer needed it.

I appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Please advise"


The FBI in the next two pages forwarded the letter and got their own legal advice, and said they would keep it. I'm assuming the redacted is talking about the found money.

The first letter was dated March 30, 1982 and sent to the Director of the FBI in Washington DC.


The Attorneys the FBI contacted advised:

"...advised that inasmuch as this matter is not completely ajudicated that the money recovered is evidence and is also stolen property and in the event the case is adjudicated, the money would be returned to the rightful owner, either the bonding company or Northwest Orient Airlines. He said <redacted> would have to contact the rightful owner of the money following the adjudication of the case in an effort to return the money"

that response was sent to the Director of the FBI.

A letter was apparently sent to the original letter write in Ceres, California, repeating what the FBI director was told.
this was done May 19, 1982. that's page 371

all pages attached


At the time Tosaw wrote his Cooper book in 1984, he was in Ceres, California. So that matches up
D. B. Cooper: Dead Or Alive?
by Richard T Tosaw
ISBN 13: 9780960901616
ISBN 10: 0960901612
Paperback; Ceres, Ca: Tosaw Publishing Co., 1984
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 07:21:50 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7457 on: October 13, 2021, 10:35:20 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7458 on: October 13, 2021, 10:42:43 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 10:43:57 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7459 on: October 13, 2021, 11:06:36 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?

Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?  I looked up Tosaw's obituary:

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and found that it states he founded "The Bureau of Missing Heirs, Inc., specializing in escheat law"  so does BH = "The Bureau of Missing Heirs".  In other words rtt:bh = Richard T. Tosaw of or from The Bureau of Missing Heirs ? ? ?

From Wikipedia:
"Escheat /ɪsˈtʃiːt/[1][2] is a common law doctrine that transfers the real property of a person who has died without heirs to the Crown or state. It serves to ensure that property is not left in "limbo" without recognized ownership."

Certainly sounds like it could apply to the TB Money....wrt unrecognized ownership ?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7460 on: October 14, 2021, 12:09:48 AM »
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Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?


Heh. Things were different back in the day.
When men were in all the business jobs, and they didn't know how to use a typewriter...they'd pass something off to the secretary or secretarial pool to get typed up.

To keep track of things, the standard was to have  the upper case initials of the person that supposedly "wrote" the letter or whatever first, then colone, then lower case initials of the person who actually typed it.

so "bh" was the secretary of Tosaw's. I doubt if Tosaw typed it, he'd include that line to identify his company. It woudl be a strange misuse of the format, if so.

I wonder if someone who redacted, didn't realize the RTT conveys info in that letter :)

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Quote
Write the letter according to proper business formatting. Include the closing and signature block.

Add two blank lines underneath the signature block. Begin the typist’s initials line flush left.

Type the initials of the letter writer in capital letters, followed by a slash or colon. Add the typist’s initials in lowercase letters. For example, if the letter writer's name is Andrew Benson, and the typist's name is Carrie Dale, the typist line should appear as follows: AB/cd, or AB:cd.

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 12:12:27 AM by snowmman »
 
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7461 on: October 14, 2021, 07:09:34 AM »
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Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?


Heh. Things were different back in the day.
When men were in all the business jobs, and they didn't know how to use a typewriter...they'd pass something off to the secretary or secretarial pool to get typed up.

To keep track of things, the standard was to have  the upper case initials of the person that supposedly "wrote" the letter or whatever first, then colone, then lower case initials of the person who actually typed it.

so "bh" was the secretary of Tosaw's. I doubt if Tosaw typed it, he'd include that line to identify his company. It woudl be a strange misuse of the format, if so.

I wonder if someone who redacted, didn't realize the RTT conveys info in that letter :)

per You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Write the letter according to proper business formatting. Include the closing and signature block.

Add two blank lines underneath the signature block. Begin the typist’s initials line flush left.

Type the initials of the letter writer in capital letters, followed by a slash or colon. Add the typist’s initials in lowercase letters. For example, if the letter writer's name is Andrew Benson, and the typist's name is Carrie Dale, the typist line should appear as follows: AB/cd, or AB:cd.

Thanks, I learned something new !  ;D
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7462 on: October 14, 2021, 02:28:51 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?

Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?  I looked up Tosaw's obituary:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

and found that it states he founded "The Bureau of Missing Heirs, Inc., specializing in escheat law"  so does BH = "The Bureau of Missing Heirs".  In other words rtt:bh = Richard T. Tosaw of or from The Bureau of Missing Heirs ? ? ?

From Wikipedia:
"Escheat /ɪsˈtʃiːt/[1][2] is a common law doctrine that transfers the real property of a person who has died without heirs to the Crown or state. It serves to ensure that property is not left in "limbo" without recognized ownership."

Certainly sounds like it could apply to the TB Money....wrt unrecognized ownership ?

,,,
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7463 on: October 14, 2021, 03:43:24 PM »
interesting inteview of Tosaw from 2009 by Steven Rinehart (Feb 2006)

This the last known interview with Richard Tosaw before he died in 2009

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7464 on: October 14, 2021, 03:51:53 PM »
Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

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Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 03:53:01 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7465 on: October 14, 2021, 08:42:16 PM »
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Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

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Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'

Well with that UPI story, you killed 3 birds with one stone so to speak:
- Tosaw was the lawyer working for the Ingrams for the money settlement and indeed the RTT:bh reference you found yesterday.
- They state ~$6,000, but more specifically 280 bills and I am guessing we add the 14 that the FBI took for 294 x $20 = $5,880
- Tosaw states he was promised a few of the bills
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7466 on: October 15, 2021, 09:45:46 AM »
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Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

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Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'

Well with that UPI story, you killed 3 birds with one stone so to speak:
- Tosaw was the lawyer working for the Ingrams for the money settlement and indeed the RTT:bh reference you found yesterday.
- They state ~$6,000, but more specifically 280 bills and I am guessing we add the 14 that the FBI took for 294 x $20 = $5,880
- Tosaw states he was promised a few of the bills

I did a quick scan of the latest FBI documents in The Vault.  If you're interested in Jack Coffelt, there is a lot of info in there about him.  There is mention of Melvin Cooper, but then they refer to him as Merlin Cooper.  Rackstraw is mentioned briefly.  There is a letter from a school aged kid asking for info for his school project.

The most interesting piece to me is reference to a recording on page 108.  I believe Flyjack mentioned this before at DZ, but it is worth looking at if anyone has no read it.  It sounds like at some point there may have been a voice recording of Cooper??   Here is a short quote: "has in his personal possession, a copy of a voice recorder tape printout which contains all of the communications between the skyjacker, the cockpit and the Northwest Control Center, in timed sequence"

This could mean just a printout, or actual voice.  Anyhow, if someone could get hold of this, or identify the NW Airlines employee, it might be useful.




 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7467 on: October 15, 2021, 04:19:18 PM »
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Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Quote
Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'

Well with that UPI story, you killed 3 birds with one stone so to speak:
- Tosaw was the lawyer working for the Ingrams for the money settlement and indeed the RTT:bh reference you found yesterday.
- They state ~$6,000, but more specifically 280 bills and I am guessing we add the 14 that the FBI took for 294 x $20 = $5,880
- Tosaw states he was promised a few of the bills

I did a quick scan of the latest FBI documents in The Vault.  If you're interested in Jack Coffelt, there is a lot of info in there about him.  There is mention of Melvin Cooper, but then they refer to him as Merlin Cooper.  Rackstraw is mentioned briefly.  There is a letter from a school aged kid asking for info for his school project.

The most interesting piece to me is reference to a recording on page 108.  I believe Flyjack mentioned this before at DZ, but it is worth looking at if anyone has no read it.  It sounds like at some point there may have been a voice recording of Cooper??   Here is a short quote: "has in his personal possession, a copy of a voice recorder tape printout which contains all of the communications between the skyjacker, the cockpit and the Northwest Control Center, in timed sequence"

This could mean just a printout, or actual voice.  Anyhow, if someone could get hold of this, or identify the NW Airlines employee, it might be useful.

fcastle, I have been scouring some of the same FBI docs, I'm actually starting to get migraines from all of white redacted
rectangles....seeing them in my dreams.

Regarding Coffelt, who I don't think is Coop, there was an interesting antidote or two to come out of it, at least in my mind.

The Coffelt stuff is pretty intense starting in late 1976 and into 1977.  He pops up on the FBI radar when one of the stewardess's and/or flight crew (I think it's Tina, but name is redacted) let's the FBI know that someone claiming to be from Warner Brothers contacts her asking her to come to LA to look at a suspect picture (Coffelt) and discuss the case.  They have Coffelt's story or account of the hijacking and want to sell the story to a studio or network.  So they pursue
the entire flight crew to get their approval and build credibility. It seems as though there is some offer of money made. My best understanding is that one of the stewardesses and one of the pilots actually winds up flying from Arkansas to California to meet with said person(s). 

And this is where it gets mildly interesting.  The FBI has kind of been kept in the loop, they are a little nervous about
the stewardess and or the pilot giving up any confidential information that has been "held back" regarding things that
took place on the plane with Coop that was never released publicly. There is some type of interview performed.  They do not confirm that the
picture of Coffelt is Coop, and they seemingly don't discuss any hold back information.

However, there seems to be a follow up interview with the FBI where they ask the stewardess if she discussed certain aspects of what
happened on the plane.  Of course, much of it is redacted, but there seems to be particular interest in stewardesses' and Cooper's movement on the plane and
whether or not there was an opportunity for something to have taken place...it's an interesting window, but the redactions make it somewhat worthless.

Anyway, the above is a very loose interpretation by a newbie...all of this is in part 61, from roughly page 370 through the end page 416.

Interesting points:
- The FBI cautions the stewardess that any information she has is crucial to the investigation and should not be made public bottom of page 411 into
top of page 412. (no wonder why she barely talks to this day, right Mayor Bruce ?  :-) )
- The discussion between the stewardess and the FBI aferwards on pages 410, 411 and 412.
- Which stewardess and pilot went to CA ?  Tina and William J. Rataczak ?

Ok....well that's enough of my mediocre post for now !

PS
Yes, the comment about the potential audio of Cooper's voice or not was interesting....I also wasn't sure if that was just a transcript.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7468 on: October 15, 2021, 05:47:54 PM »
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Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Quote
Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'

Well with that UPI story, you killed 3 birds with one stone so to speak:
- Tosaw was the lawyer working for the Ingrams for the money settlement and indeed the RTT:bh reference you found yesterday.
- They state ~$6,000, but more specifically 280 bills and I am guessing we add the 14 that the FBI took for 294 x $20 = $5,880
- Tosaw states he was promised a few of the bills

I did a quick scan of the latest FBI documents in The Vault.  If you're interested in Jack Coffelt, there is a lot of info in there about him.  There is mention of Melvin Cooper, but then they refer to him as Merlin Cooper.  Rackstraw is mentioned briefly.  There is a letter from a school aged kid asking for info for his school project.

The most interesting piece to me is reference to a recording on page 108.  I believe Flyjack mentioned this before at DZ, but it is worth looking at if anyone has no read it.  It sounds like at some point there may have been a voice recording of Cooper??   Here is a short quote: "has in his personal possession, a copy of a voice recorder tape printout which contains all of the communications between the skyjacker, the cockpit and the Northwest Control Center, in timed sequence"

This could mean just a printout, or actual voice.  Anyhow, if someone could get hold of this, or identify the NW Airlines employee, it might be useful.

It seems to be exactly WHAT IT SAYS IT IS! "has in his personal possession, a copy of a voice recorder tape printout which contains all of the communications between the skyjacker, the cockpit and the Northwest Control Center, in timed sequence".

A printout is a "printout", not a actual voices.  So far there is nothing that indicates Cooper ever talked to  Northwest Control Center, in timed sequence. How would he? The inter-phone system cannot transmit over any radio to be recorded by  Northwest Control Center.

Or is someone saying there was a voice recorder on 305 that recorded all conversations of people speaking on the plane? Cooper and cockpit crew, passengers . . . and there is a printout of that extracted from the FDR?

There is nothing in the Harrison papers which suggests or confirms the existence of any recordings of Cooper. If Cooper's voice had been recorded by anyone, Harrison would have noted that. The content of anything the hijacker was saying or said would have been paramount in Harrison's account! 

What is it Cooper is supposed to have said to  Northwest Control Center?  'Get your asses in gear!' ?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 06:00:13 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7469 on: October 16, 2021, 12:53:42 AM »
Sorry I didnt mean to intrude in a private conversation you guys have going here. Carry on. 

 vote the smileycode and safe      Part 62 108 DBC 25672 in a conversation about Coffelt looking for a voice match to clear Coffelt off the suspect list, blah blah blah ...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 12:54:39 AM by georger »