Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.8%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (19.2%)
75% Cooper lived
11 (21.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 557141 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6825 on: July 31, 2021, 02:03:55 AM »
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          Is there any difference in the rigging cards of a chute packed by the military vs. the rigging card of a similar chute packed by  a civilian rigger? (other than name of rigger)

I actually don't remember.  I haven't seen enough military parachutes cards except those that were military surplus.  Usually, the parachutes for military pilots of high-performance aircraft, especially USAF types, are maintained out of the aircraft along with their other flight gear by dedicated ground personnel who are responsible for them.  In some military aircraft, the pilots wear an integrated torso harness and the parachute and survival gear remain in the ejection seat except for servicing.  Or to put it another way, some military pilots don't usually get involved in checking packing data.   
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6826 on: July 31, 2021, 02:06:58 AM »
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           As per Hayden's aircraft... Wasn't there mention of this in Bruce's book? I'll have to go back and look.

I don't remember seeing a mention of Hayden's aircraft type anywhere except that I think someone mentions that it was an aerobatic plane.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6827 on: July 31, 2021, 03:35:42 AM »
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Bruce, the answer to your question about Boeing Flight Services has already been answered many times by the FBI and Hayden.  NWA personnel at SEATAC (probably Al Lee, NWA Chief Pilot at SEATAC) got in touch with Boeing Flight Services for assistance in locating parachutes.  They in turn got in touch with Hayden and he sent them his two backpacks by taxi.  Boeing Flight Services then got them to the NWA people at SEATAC by one means or another.


Robert, your statements are grossly in error, and your speculations on who "probably" contact whom is not helpful.

1. Where in the documents does Hayden say he was contacted by Boeing Flight Services? I have never seen anything that suggests that occurrence specifically.

2. Rather, Hayden told me that he was contacted by Barry Halstad of Pacific Aviation and George Harrison, the Chief of Flight ops for Northwest Orient. Where has Hayden said anything different, and to whom did he say it?

3. The FBI's document from the wee hours of 11. 25. 71, (164 - 81 - 83), which is the first document describing the back chutes, cites Boeing Flight Services as participating in the procurement of the parachutes, but has a hand-written correction in the upper-righthand corner that says the listed phone number is actually for Pacific Aviation and not BFS. Nevertheless, BFS continues to be cited in FBI documents and Norjack investigators such as you. The question I ask is why? What did BFS do and who did it?

4. Al Lee, again, was the Chief of Ground Ops for Northwest Orient at Sea-Tac. Why do you continue to describe him as Chief of Flight Operations?
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6828 on: July 31, 2021, 03:28:46 PM »
Dudeman wrote: “ Also, now supposedly Cooper is opening the backpack bailout rigs? I extremely doubt that. Unless he is now a rigger, it would be near impossible for him to get them usably closed again, what with the spring loaded pilot chute and all. Especially if they have the metal cones, rather than cloth closing loops, for the ripcord pins to go into.”

True. The military emergency rigs were packed very tightly. You’d likely need rigger tools to repack them. Paddles, flap pullers etc. I tried repacking my stock military NB 8 by hand. It was a no go. I finally succeeded by using parachute cord to pull the flap grommets over the cones on the opposing flap but it wasn’t easy. When military emergency rigs were adopted for sport parachuting, fabric extensions were sewn
into the closing flaps (which were cut to allow the insertion of extensions) to allow easier packing and to accommodate the volume increase that resulted from adding a deployment sleeve to slow down canopy openings.

BTW it’s a small point but there is no NB6 canopy. NB6 refers to the harness and container only. The canopy used by the Navy in NB6 rigs was the Navy 26 ft diameter conical. My life was saved by a 26 ft Navy conical. It was packed in my chest reserve. I cut away from a bad main C9 canopy malfunction and was ECSTATIC when when my dirt cheap Navy conical deployed with no issues. At that point I had about ten seconds of life remaining but for that sweet sweet conical. It’s obsolete now but I still have it and keep it in airworthy condition. Can you “respect” an inanimate object? I do.

377
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 03:30:08 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6829 on: July 31, 2021, 03:50:16 PM »
Norman Hayden was an acrobatic pilot. That is why he had the type of chutes he had - he says ...

Original 2011 article on Hayden by Smith: Smith quotes Hayden:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

"Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear.
 
Norman says he is strictly a “precision acrobatic pilot,” and he’s very proud of his flying acumen.  Obviously, he has never needed a parachute.  Hence, the parachute was used strictly to maintain compliance with FAA acrobatic regulations . . . "

. . . see photos of Hayden's chutes ... Hayden agreed to RENT his chutes to the FBI ...


*Hmmm. Acrobatic pilot chute may have been used by acrobatic oscillations-bump hijacker ? Hmmmmm.  ;)  Acrobats unite!  Thats one helluva a coincidence? Was Cooper an acrobat and a former Olympian ? Maybe he knew an acrobatic chute when he saw one ?  :o
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 06:02:36 PM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6830 on: July 31, 2021, 05:18:44 PM »
Debris flow - collection sites posted earlier by Chaucer ... which contradict the R99 flow narrative.

Watter flows down hill!  ;)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:56:52 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6831 on: July 31, 2021, 05:29:21 PM »
'Material dredged from the river channel in the Columbia River was placed in several locations on or near the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm as well as one location across the river on the Oregon side. '

The material deposited on the Oregon side was never addressed - by anyone, so far as known. This site was never examined for Cooper money or artifacts. Moreover information about this deposit site was not publicly available, in contrast to the obvious excavation going on at Tina Bar which attracted public attention.

Could the Oregon site be examined today? Who knows!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:43:27 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6832 on: August 01, 2021, 12:23:08 AM »
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Norman Hayden was an acrobatic pilot. That is why he had the type of chutes he had - he says ...

Original 2011 article on Hayden by Smith: Smith quotes Hayden:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

"Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear.
 
Norman says he is strictly a “precision acrobatic pilot,” and he’s very proud of his flying acumen.  Obviously, he has never needed a parachute.  Hence, the parachute was used strictly to maintain compliance with FAA acrobatic regulations . . . "

. . . see photos of Hayden's chutes ... Hayden agreed to RENT his chutes to the FBI ...


*Hmmm. Acrobatic pilot chute may have been used by acrobatic oscillations-bump hijacker ? Hmmmmm.  ;)  Acrobats unite!  Thats one helluva a coincidence? Was Cooper an acrobat and a former Olympian ? Maybe he knew an acrobatic chute when he saw one ?  :o

That does look like an NB-6 harness.  I can't see enough of the container to determine if it is an NB-6 type.  And this does not look like the harness and container that is on the WSHM parachute.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6833 on: August 01, 2021, 01:39:25 AM »
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Norman Hayden was an acrobatic pilot. That is why he had the type of chutes he had - he says ...

Original 2011 article on Hayden by Smith: Smith quotes Hayden:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

"Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear.
 
Norman says he is strictly a “precision acrobatic pilot,” and he’s very proud of his flying acumen.  Obviously, he has never needed a parachute.  Hence, the parachute was used strictly to maintain compliance with FAA acrobatic regulations . . . "

. . . see photos of Hayden's chutes ... Hayden agreed to RENT his chutes to the FBI ...


*Hmmm. Acrobatic pilot chute may have been used by acrobatic oscillations-bump hijacker ? Hmmmmm.  ;)  Acrobats unite!  Thats one helluva a coincidence? Was Cooper an acrobat and a former Olympian ? Maybe he knew an acrobatic chute when he saw one ?  :o

That does look like an NB-6 harness.  I can't see enough of the container to determine if it is an NB-6 type.  And this does not look like the harness and container that is on the WSHM parachute.

many photos of Hayden's chute at the article url ... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 01:40:24 AM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6834 on: August 01, 2021, 09:16:35 AM »
           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?
 

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6835 on: August 01, 2021, 09:27:19 AM »
            As per dredge matter... Did this occur during the same timeline of the Tena Bar deposits?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6836 on: August 01, 2021, 04:02:17 PM »
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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6837 on: August 01, 2021, 08:33:05 PM »
A couple points -

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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.

R99 is correct on this. As for the difference of military vs civilian packing cards on backpack bailout rigs, I'm not 100% sure, but I can't see where they'd differ much if at all. Pretty basic information - the type of canopy inside, the repack dates (and if used vs normal 'cycle' repack), and any repairs or part changes made. R99 is also correct that the ejection systems for high performance military aircraft are a whole different matter. Those are usually integrated with the seat and designed for the specific aircraft.

Interesting to note, looking at the picture of the card for Hayden's returned chute, neither rigger wrote the 3-letter seal ID on the card. Not that I look at a lot of them, but most of the ones i see today do have it. I guess it's rigger's discretion.

------------

I talked to an older rigger, and according to him indeed it was a fairly common practice for an instructor to use a bailout rig to put out static line students instead of wearing a more cumbersome gutter gear sport rig. They wouldn't jump with it, but put out their students and ride the plane down. So Eric's assertion that Cossey may have used the DBC rig while instructing is feasible.

------------

Don't know what Hayden's plane was, but it would be aerobatic. The FAA requires a bailout rig for aerobatic flying, which is why he had them. According to RMB, Hayden was annoyed by this and had no intention of ever actually using it. I'm guessing that a structural failure or a fire may have convinced him otherwise.

-------------

Per 377's post, my first reserve ride was also on a 26' Navy Conical. It was 4 years older than I was.

 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6838 on: August 01, 2021, 10:16:36 PM »
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A couple points -

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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.

R99 is correct on this. As for the difference of military vs civilian packing cards on backpack bailout rigs, I'm not 100% sure, but I can't see where they'd differ much if at all. Pretty basic information - the type of canopy inside, the repack dates (and if used vs normal 'cycle' repack), and any repairs or part changes made. R99 is also correct that the ejection systems for high performance military aircraft are a whole different matter. Those are usually integrated with the seat and designed for the specific aircraft.

Interesting to note, looking at the picture of the card for Hayden's returned chute, neither rigger wrote the 3-letter seal ID on the card. Not that I look at a lot of them, but most of the ones i see today do have it. I guess it's rigger's discretion.

------------

I talked to an older rigger, and according to him indeed it was a fairly common practice for an instructor to use a bailout rig to put out static line students instead of wearing a more cumbersome gutter gear sport rig. They wouldn't jump with it, but put out their students and ride the plane down. So Eric's assertion that Cossey may have used the DBC rig while instructing is feasible.

------------

Don't know what Hayden's plane was, but it would be aerobatic. The FAA requires a bailout rig for aerobatic flying, which is why he had them. According to RMB, Hayden was annoyed by this and had no intention of ever actually using it. I'm guessing that a structural failure or a fire may have convinced him otherwise.

-------------

Per 377's post, my first reserve ride was also on a 26' Navy Conical. It was 4 years older than I was.

My first and last reserve ride was on a surplus 24' military reserve on my 9th jump.  It was required due to the canopy of a 5-TU managing to get inside itself in some manner that resulted in the canopy area being reduced to about 1/3 of its normal size and the right risers going up to the left side of the canopy and the left risers going up to the left side of the canopy.  This resulted in what was basically a rotating streamer.  I had to reach behind my head and pull the risers apart so I could tilt my head back enough to see what was going on with the canopy.

I had difficulty getting the reserve deployed despite hand feeding it out.  It fouled in the main canopy for several seconds and then fully opened giving me a good opening shock.  Releasing the main canopy proved to be a problem also since those WW2 Capewells didn't function very well in the air.  But I finally got rid of the main canopy and ended up landing in some young sapling trees that prevented me from getting more than my toes on the ground.

My skydiving instructor, who was a rigger and who packed the reserve, saw the whole matter from the jump plane.  He jumped, and forgot his helmet, and was the first one to reach me.  He helped me get out of the harness.  He also got my autograph in his rigger's logbook and a case of his favorite beverage.

Lessons learned included wearing gloves on jumps, I usually did but not on that jump, and carrying a sharp pocket knife that could be accessed on the ground and used to cut myself out of a harness when necessary.  I got shroud burns on both hands and problems with both thumbs from the reserve deployment and the Capewell problem.

The Great Amazon, of DZ fame, told me that she took a reserve ride on her 10th jump.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6839 on: August 02, 2021, 11:32:00 AM »
          Sorry for the delay in response.... Having a hard time processing this... Dudeman17, you mean you rode your reserve more than one time? (you also 377?)    crazy S.O.B.s    LOL!!    You guys (any of you that have had to cut away your main in order to deploy your reserve) must be endowed with the biggest brass gonads known to man! Just the thought of cutting away your main terrifies me! And then to think that you've done it more than once.... Blows me away..